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Old June 2, 2010, 05:39 PM   #1
paintsnow
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Sears and Kmart - Defense Free Zones

I was kicked out of a Sears in my home town. I am not going to say asked to leave, or polity escorted out, because of how the manager treated me, and was threatening me with arrest. OC is legal in the state of NV, and i was not being disruptive, a buddy and i were simply looking at tools.While i was OCing, this policy applies to CC as well. "Concealed is concealed" people, i respect your view, but please take a look at the "United front" quote i include towards the end.

Sears response to a phone call asking for clarification on their firearms policy:
"Dear sir,

Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
that prompted you to contact us. We apologize for the inconvenience you
have experienced and understand your frustration with firearms not being
allowed in Sears stores.

With regard to your suggestion that Sears change its policy regarding
weapons in the workplace, Sears has no intention of doing so at this
time as we remain focused on providing a safe shopping and work
environment for our customers and associates

Once again, we apologize for your experience with firearms not being
allowed in Sears stores. We appreciate your business, and value you as a
customer. We certainly hope you will continue to make Sears Holdings
Corporation your choice for quality and value.


Sincerely,
Brooke G.
Retail Customer Care
Sears Holdings Corporation"

Kmart's response to a separate email asking about the Corporate policy regarding the legal carry of firearms into their stores:
"
Dear sir,

Thank you for your recent correspondence. We are always interested in
hearing from our customers, and regret it was this type of situation
that prompted you to contact us. We apologize for any frustration you
have encountered with our Gun Policy.


You may forward your comments to:

Sears Holdings Corporation
3333 Beverly Road
Mail Stop RR-1
Hoffman Estates, IL 60179

Once more, thank you for taking the time to contact us. We appreciate
your business and value you as a Sears Holdings customer. We certainly
hope you will continue to make Sears Holdings your choice for quality
and value.


Sincerely,
Ray J
Retail Customer Care
Sears Holdings Corporation "


Please feel free to send letter, emails, or phone calls in to both companies letting them know if they will be losing your business. Personally i will not be spending any money with either store unless the policy is changed, and i will be informing all of my friends who support the 2nd amendment of their policy.

Hopefully we can get Sears Holdings Corporation to reconsider and take an approach similar to their competitors such as Lowe's, Home Depot, Walmart and other companies such as Starbucks that go along with state law, instead of infringing on 2nd amendment rights and not allowing customers to protect themselves.

Somebody on a local forum discussing the incident posted this:

""Here is my suggestion: let's put up a united front. When gun owners are treated poorly for acting within their rights, we support them in that activity instead of getting all high and mighty. Or, let's continue to splinter ourselves. FUDDs over there, concealed only snobs on this side, cops over here, NFA owners (you unpopular @#$%s...why do you need a silencer or a machine gun?). Hand together or hang alone, y'know? ""

So please, feel free to repost this on any local, small forums, or other large forums i have not heard about, it gotten around to posting on yet. Lets band together, and get some changes made!
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Old June 2, 2010, 05:51 PM   #2
rjrivero
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I don't recall sears posting the requisite signage in my neighborhood. However, I can't say that I've been there a whole lot.
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Old June 2, 2010, 05:57 PM   #3
johns7022
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Another OC nut walking around scaring the housewives and little kids...
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Old June 2, 2010, 06:31 PM   #4
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hhhmmm First post? Sounds like someone trolling, but I could be wrong
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Old June 2, 2010, 07:52 PM   #5
paintsnow
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It is my first post, im trying to get the word out, and get the community to band together and get some changes made.

OC nut scaring the women and children....I OC because i cannot yet obtain a CCW. The second amendment applies to me just the same, and i find my life to be valuable enough to protect it, even if that means that i have to OC for the time being.

This policy is against CC as well. Sure they dont know you are carrying, but why give money to a store that doesnt welcome you? If the manager found out you were CC, or you told them for whatever reason, policy states that you would be asked to leave just the same.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:04 PM   #6
Bartholomew Roberts
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I'm a little confused on how KMart is related to this? Not that I am likely to buy much from Sears or Kmart, regardless of their weapons policy.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:21 PM   #7
paintsnow
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Kmart is owned by Sears Holdings Corporation, and holds the same No Firearms policy.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:42 PM   #8
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I have no problem with private businesses setting the rules which they will do business by, and deciding which actions they will allow, and which they won't. That is their choice.........mine is to spend my money there, or the next store down the street.

I can understand being upset with their reaction to your openly carrying a firearm, but, you need to understand that not everybody is alright with a private citizen walking around with a gun on his hip. Many people I know would literaly do the "oh my god, he has a gun" screamed at the top of thier lungs if they saw you open carrying. Different strokes for different folks. While open carry of an unloaded firearm is legal in Utah, I for one, do not want the hassle of freaking out passers by, and choose to carry concealed.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:50 PM   #9
Glenn E. Meyer
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There is no posting on any of the TX stores that I know of.

I don't recall the K-Marts, before they closed, having postings either.

I'm suspicious of this being a nationwide policy.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:54 PM   #10
paintsnow
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CrankyLove, i am not able to get a CCW at this time. In Arizona, OC is so common, people dont really care anymore. I think that we should strive for that same atmosphere everywhere it is legal. I do not want this to be a CC vs. OC debate, but i believe that i have the same right to protect myself as everyone else who can legally CC.

Either way, Sears is an Anti Gun Corporation. The policy applies to CC as well, which means it affects you. Just because they cannot see you carrying, does not mean you are not going against their wishes and policy.

If we dont fight to keep our rights now, they will be taken away. If law is put into place that a entering a business that is posted with no firearms signs would be a misdemeanor or even felony, and Sears posts those signs up, it would be a huge risk to carry there. Once that happens it will be too late. Private policy and the perception of people is easier to change then law once it is put into effect.

Please consider that if Sears knew you were carrying, you would be asked to leave. That means you are not welcome in their business. Why give money to a company who doesnt want you there? As gun owners it is important to stand up for each other, and work as a united part of the population, not CC being a small minority, OC being anothing, and hunters being yet another. Our voice will be too weak if we divide ourselves.

Please consider sending a letter stating they will not be receiving any business from you until the policy is changed to allow you to CC and me to OC.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:57 PM   #11
sixxgunnernick
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hmm..

If a store has a no gun sign thats up to them..thats the american way..freedom. Looks like I'm leaving my SIS ultra in my car..noway! It sucks but thats the way it is. Just happy to have my SIS..I think I'll clean it.
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Old June 2, 2010, 08:57 PM   #12
paintsnow
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Glenn, there were no postings at the store i was kicked out of either.

In my state OC is legal, and signs on private businesses hold no legal weight. It would be identical to Sears posting a sign stating no Yellow shirts allowed.

If you do not believe me, and the copied email, by all means, send an email to Sears Corporate, and ask for the Firearms policy yourself.
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Old June 2, 2010, 10:25 PM   #13
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Open carry of a LOADED handgun is legal in Utah - with a permit.
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Old June 2, 2010, 10:42 PM   #14
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I respect a persons right to open carry to an extent... It is not a very good idea to go into a department store with a gun in plain sight.
We have many people who may be frightend of such a display.
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Old June 2, 2010, 10:55 PM   #15
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So Paintsnow, just out of curiosity, what state do you live in where the situation occurred with Sears?
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Old June 2, 2010, 11:08 PM   #16
paintsnow
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Nevada.

If you would like more details please PM me. I am trying to keep my personal encounter with the local manager separate from the issue of the entire corporation being anti gun, nationwide, regardless of local laws.
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Old June 2, 2010, 11:49 PM   #17
johnwilliamson062
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Quote:
We have many people who may be frightend of such a display
I am frightened by how many people think we live in a democracy, not a constitutional republic. Hasn't stopped any of them from opening their mouths.

I'll retain my pistol on my hip in plain view when it suits me.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:21 AM   #18
Crankylove
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Quote:
Open carry of a LOADED handgun is legal in Utah - with a permit
I could be wrong, as it has happened before........once. But, last I checked, the only permit to carry a firearm in Utah is the Concealed Firearm Permit.........which allows you to carry a loaded, concealed firearm. And while open carry is legal, the firearm must meet the legal definition of being unloaded.

I will have to double check that now, as I hate it when I stick my foot in my mouth
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:35 AM   #19
cannonfire
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Quote:
In my state OC is legal, and signs on private businesses hold no legal weight.
It's private property, if they do not want weapons in their store, they are legally allowed to deny that. They are allowed to deny service to anyone they want. And if there was a sign that said no yellow shirts or you will be kicked out, guess what, find a blue shirt. That's like saying that people who do not like to wear shirts and shoes should stand up and protest because of the signs that say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service." They are within their legal rights to not allow you to have a weapon in the store. So if you come over to my house and you are open carrying, I have to let you into my home? or to my garage sale? It's private property either way, not public property.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:53 AM   #20
paintsnow
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cannonfire, i was simply posting that because in some states signs hold legal weight. I figured since there were multiple posts of people saying that their location is not signed, it might be able that, so i decided to clear up some confusion. I understand that it is private property, which is why i left. I was not going to stand outside and argue with a brick wall. Voting with your wallet and polite correspondence with corporate will be more effective then me fighting with the manager of ONE local store.

Sears is Anti Gun. If we do not get them to change this, they may start posting signs in states where a sign does hold you legally responsible to keep CCer out.

We need to stand together as a gun community and let them know that we respect their right to make policies against guns, but we have a right to shop elsewhere, and they are losing business because of this.

If you agree with OC or not, this does apply to CC. Even though they cant see you CCing, you are breaking their policy. If im supposed to find a blue shirt, are you going to leave your firearm in the car? Concealing does nothing to help yourself or the rest of the gun carrying community. Im not trying to tell you that im against CC, or that you should be for OC, just that we as gun owners should step up, and make some changes that will be better for everybody, including you.

Why support a business that doesnt welcome you or want you inside their stores?

I encourage you to stand up for the 2nd amendment as a whole, and help out the other gun owners and write an email telling Sears they will be losing business due to their no firearms policy. Some people such as myself cannot conceal, but i take my right to self defense seriously, and carry openly anyways.
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Old June 3, 2010, 12:54 AM   #21
paintsnow
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The above post is not directed solely at cannonfire. I have seen many comments such as "concealed is concealed" and "they have the right to ban firearms" All of these from gun owners.

They do hold that right, just like we are free to shop elsewhere.
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Old June 3, 2010, 09:24 AM   #22
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I see the "Just Conceal and be done with it" type of comments alot... I will address this as it actually applies to ME... I OC 100% of the time at the moment... Why? Because I CAN NOT legally carry concealed!

I have applied for and am waiting for my CCW... but until it arrives I either go unarmed or I OC. I now live in NV and it is legal to OC here so I choose to OC at least until my CCW arrives!

Another situation is if you are under 21 (it is legal to OC as long as you can legally own(NOT BUY but OWN) a handgun in NV) so those 18, 19 and 20 year olds that can't CC yet... They CAN OC! so if they choose to do so it is well within the law!
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Old June 3, 2010, 10:01 AM   #23
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1. I don't see anything wrong with open carrying. I do it all the time.

2. I don't see anything wrong with sharing that a company is anti-gun. We can all band together and try to get them to change their policy. That's how the Brady Bunch does it with pro-gun companies, there is nothing wrong with fighting fire with fire.

About the only thing I disagree with, in this area, is when someone says, "Before I went to Moe's Tie Dyed T-Shirt shop carrying my gun I called to see if it was OK." My opinion is if Moe wants to ban guns in his store he can post a sign, otherwise I, by default, am carrying my gun there, but then if Moe has a problem with it, I don't see any harm in telling everybody else that Moe has a problem with it so they can make their own decisions.
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Old June 3, 2010, 10:04 AM   #24
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You hit the nail on the head NavyLT!
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Old June 3, 2010, 10:42 AM   #25
ClydeFrog
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business rights vs 2A/citizen rights...

this subject has come up before on other popular firearms/2A rights forums.

On a personal level, I see both legal sides of this issue but I lean more towards the gun owners/2A supporters. Safety & security are important but LE can't be everywhere or respond in 2-5min. Doing licensed security work(armed & unarmed) I can tell you first-hand that 911/LE responses can take from 5 to 45 minutes.
Active shooters, gang activities, armed robbers-car jackings, sex assaults-stalkers are more & more common at malls/shopping centers and retail stores.
More business owners may post signs or have corp SOPs but I think they are more concerned with street gangs or thugs than some middle age guy in a polo shirt & relaxed fit Dockers with a 1911A1 Commander or Glock 19/23 on their hip.

I agree 100% with noted gun writer & sworn LE officer Massad F Ayoob said about wearing/concealing weapons in public; "don't startle the horses", a ref to Victorian era New York City(late 1800s/early 1900s) where upper class citizens said not to draw attention to yourself or cause a big scene.
A more common, tactical term is; "quiet professional".
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