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Old June 22, 2010, 12:52 PM   #51
ranburr
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The learning curve will not be as steep.

That is what most people think. Your basic firearm skills are probably not going to be an issue. But, you will be surprised at how little you know when you get into the more advanced training. This will be more so when you get into force on force training.
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Old June 22, 2010, 02:38 PM   #52
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Would you pay alot less for Instruction by someone who has taken Instructor courses from big name schools, or would you rather pay the big bucks and get the same material?

DD
If the man in question is an instructor. There are people who can shoot and can't teach no matter who they learned from. Your choice, do you have confidence in his ability to convey information and he is knowledgeable or some gun range cowboy passing on his own quirks?
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Old July 1, 2010, 01:07 PM   #53
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It has definately been interesting to read some of the replies here. I have seen alot of talented shooters in the travels and ranges I have been too. I have seen alot of great instructors that really dont practice what they preach, but found a way to portait like they did. If you go into a class thinking you are not going to learn anything, then you are in the wrong mindset to begin with. I have have taken some great classes from people who have been there and done that, and probably doing it tomorrow. I have taken classes from people who have taken instructor courses from those I have just mentioned. Some of the better instructors and courses were from the instructors who gave you the theories and multiple ways to do the particular task, and not just do as I say and its my way or the highway mantality I did not like nor was not impressed with. You can learn a little bit from everyone as long as you are willing to learn.

DD
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Old July 1, 2010, 06:36 PM   #54
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They go with the big name for the same reason people go to the big name colleges. I'd rather pay much less and get the same degree.
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Old July 1, 2010, 08:39 PM   #55
Glenn E. Meyer
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Yes, but that analogy doesn't hold completely. Research has clearly shown that the big name, prestige school leads to better jobs.

We don't have any data that is systematic on gun trainers. Givens has a great record with his students. But there's no accrediation and outcome research across the gun trainer world.
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Old July 2, 2010, 07:00 AM   #56
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You're quite right, a big name degree will get you the better job but has absolutely no bearing on whether or not you'll keep the job. Research has proved this. My point is that it doesn't matter where the education comes from as long as you are learning what needs to be learned. The big name training schools are probably phenomenal but I'm sure there's some lesser name schools that are probably quite good as well. It just comes down to how much money you want to spend.
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Old July 2, 2010, 07:56 AM   #57
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Basic firearms skills will most likely help you in a SHTF moment as long as you saw the attack coming in advance and have the time to react. When I hear comments like, "I dont need an Instructor to tell me I'm missing the target" or something to that effect, it makes me cringe. Good Instructors dont just tell you that you missed, try again! A good instructor will guide you & and help give reasons why you are missing and the corrective actions to take. If you havent taken a basic safety class that involves proper grip, stance, sight alignment & sight picture, trigger finger placement and trigger press, breath control and you think that you dont need any instruction because your father's brother's cousin's former roommate taught you how to shoot, then why are you even reading the Training and Tactics section of the forum?

In the cases where the Law Abiding Citizens made it out of the confrontation alive and sometimes un-scaled, without any training was, how can I put it? Lucky comes to mind. I have seen students when shooting at a stationary target, with all the time in the world, have great shot placement. Some of the great shot placement is due to natural marksmanship, or good family or friend's guidence and or amatuer instruction. But like someone posted earlier, paper doesnt shoot back, and a static target is alot easier to hit than a moving one. Now add in having to draw your weapon from the concealed garment, establish the proper grip and present gun to threat safely without muzzle flashing or inadvertanly shooting themselves, get a front sight/muzzle on target and press the trigger in a matter of 3 seconds or less. Have seen some of those same people bring the gun up and present it to the target the way they were shown, and not hit the sid of the barn because the gun was crooked in their hand.

Most of the deadly force encounters are B&E style break-ins. What happens if you hear a knock at the door, when you go to answer it, it comes flying open at you and you are rushed by an unknown number of "crim of the crop citzens who are all trying to straighten their lives out" some carrying weapons and some arent? Does that day of plincking at the range help you with multiple threats and possible 360 degree attack? No, it doesnt!

Can the instructor who has been taught how to engage those same threats and or has been in that situation or simular scenrio give you the mind set or teach you how to prepare or how to respond for that situation? Absolutely!
A good instructor teaching Personal Protection or Law Enforcement Officers will make sure the student knows the basics and will refresh on them for a few minutes to make sure everyone is on the same page. Knowing the basics will definately help with some of the shooting. Since alot of Deadly Force Scenarios occur at such short range you will most likely have to resort to one handed shooting. If you do not practice one handed shooting and or support hand shooting, I highly recomend you start now especially if you plan on attending a Personal Protection course.

DD
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Old July 2, 2010, 09:02 AM   #58
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Lets not forget that some of this family member or friends instruction might not be the safe way or a preferred way. Then they turn around and teach those methods to the "student". And in some cases half of which have to be taught the proper basic fundamentals all over again. It is fustrating for an Instructor to have to do it, but a good instructor understands that, and hopefully has the patience and the ability to camly redirect the student to proper technique. Mind set and tactics arent for the most part instinctive, they have to be taught. Thats from what I have witnessed and collected over the last 20 years or so. The instructor will help you with proper grip, and draw and presentaion so you can make the first few shots count, because when the SHTF, thats all you are going to have. Some of your best instruction is from the "NO NAME" instructors. I have helped countless LEO's and Military members & civilians of all levels, improve their marksmanship and their tactical shooting and thought process. And I dont work for a big name school and all my students have been refferals.

DD

Last edited by Deputy Dog; July 2, 2010 at 09:09 AM. Reason: spelling correction
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