The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old May 20, 2010, 05:31 PM   #1
ESI Agent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 415
Is the 22LR the same diameter as the 223?

The first question is, Is the 22LR the same diameter of the 223? The second question is how good is the round for self defense in or around 15 yards. and the third question which round is best. Low,standard or high velocity rounds. Remember this is for personal defense for the distance of 15 yard to 25 yards. Thanks for the info.
ESI Agent is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 05:37 PM   #2
WLJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 140
1) 22lr is .223, 223(aka 5.56x45, 5.56 NATO) is .224
2) 223 heck yes, 22lr heck no (223 has what? 12x the energy of 22LR)
__________________
“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”
William Shakespeare
WLJ is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:09 PM   #3
cole k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: east of the Big Muddy
Posts: 233
"The second question is how good is the round for self defense in or around 15 yards. and the third question which round is best."


A .22 LR a poor self defense cartridge. IMO.
At 15 to 25 yards a shotgun is better choice.
cole k is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:11 PM   #4
mrawesome22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 9, 2005
Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills.
Posts: 3,779
The normal bore diameter of 22LR is .222". The normal bore diameter of the 223Rem (which I assume your asking about) is .224"

Unless you shoot someone in the head with a 22LR, your just gonna **** them off. They may die later, but they'll still put up one heck of a fight until they do. That is assuming they are hell bent on killing you.
mrawesome22 is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:22 PM   #5
WLJ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 140
Quote:
The normal bore diameter of 22LR is .222".
odd, check one source and they say .222, check another and they say .223
__________________
“The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.”
William Shakespeare
WLJ is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 07:39 PM   #6
DanThaMan1776
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 395
Dude don't use the 22 lr for defense. The .22 pokes holes.. the .223 tears &%$@ up. Go with that.
DanThaMan1776 is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 08:06 PM   #7
Bamashooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2010
Posts: 1,709
i agree on the .22lr as a poor defensive round, but if that is all you have then i would say its better than nothing. as far as standard or high velosity, if it was me i would use cci velositor becouse its 40gr. and velocity of 1435fps. aguila interceptor is 40gr. 1470fps. thats probably the best i could throw at a suspect in a home defense situation.
Bamashooter is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 08:54 PM   #8
trg42wraglefragle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 21, 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 831
A 22lr would be rather useless for self defense. A 223 would be much better, but at such a close range you may find the bullet in going to fast and pass through the person without doing much damage.
A shotgun would be my first choice, using buckshot.

And no they are not the same diameter, i actually thought about that yesterday and tested them.
trg42wraglefragle is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 10:06 PM   #9
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,519
Quote:
The first question is, Is the 22LR the same diameter of the 223?
You're not trying to do something, are you?
chris in va is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 10:27 PM   #10
ishida336
Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2009
Posts: 26
Using a digital caliper, .22LR came to .223, and 5.56 came to .224.
Federal red box for the .22, and some random surplus for the 5.56.
ishida336 is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 10:47 PM   #11
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
I allways suggest a handgun for self defense.........if a handgun is not an option, shotgun would be second choice. .....If you plan to sleep Full Metal Jacket style, then yes to .223 as a self defense round.
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old May 20, 2010, 11:35 PM   #12
LaserSpot
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 311
Last weekend, I shot a groundhog twice with a .22 LR from 15'; didn't stop him. In the past, I sometimes have to hit them 4-5 times to stop. If a .22 won't stop a ~10 lb. woodchuck, don't expect it to stop anything bigger.

The .223 is probably very effective when fired at close range from the full-auto weapons it was designed for, but it's still a .22 in my book.

Where does this scenario take place? If the distance is 15-25 yards, you probably should be running for cover and calling the police; taking pot-shots with a .22 is just going to get you killed or arrested.
LaserSpot is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 12:43 AM   #13
ESI Agent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 415
This info is for my personal knowledge I have both a Mini 14 with a aimpoint scope and an 870 shotgun which would be my first choice for home defense and or my Ruger P90 with night sights.

I was at turners outdoorsmen looking for a gun cleaning kit and the person behind the counter told me to get a kit for a 22 because it was the same diameter of the mini's 223. I do have two 10/22's for marksmanship. Thanks for the info.
ESI Agent is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 12:45 AM   #14
RockyMtnTactical
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2006
Location: Western US
Posts: 1,957
The diameter is the .223 round is not impressive. It's 3200fps muzzle velocity is however. Even at 500 yards, a 55gr .223 bullet is still traveling faster than the MV of a standard 36-40gr .22LR.

To equate the .223 and the .22LR is pure ignorance. Nobody with any amount of firearms knowledge of any kind would attempt to do so.

Quote:
Last weekend, I shot a groundhog twice with a .22 LR from 15'; didn't stop him. In the past, I sometimes have to hit them 4-5 times to stop. If a .22 won't stop a ~10 lb. woodchuck, don't expect it to stop anything bigger.
As far as shooting woodchucks with .22's goes, where did you hit it? I've winged whistle pigs with a .17 Mach II and they got away. When I hit them center mass or in the head, they die immediately every time I can recall.

That said, nothing is a for sure kill when it comes to self defense. The only shot that will kill instantly in any caliber with reliability is a CNS shot. Shot placement is vital.

I wouldn't trust a .22LR to do the job for self defense. I would trust a .223 about as much as anything that is hand held. Put the shots in the right spots and it should do the job.

Quote:
A 223 would be much better, but at such a close range you may find the bullet in going to fast and pass through the person without doing much damage.
Actually most .223 rounds fragment in soft tissue with high velocities.

Last edited by RockyMtnTactical; May 21, 2010 at 12:55 AM.
RockyMtnTactical is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 02:58 AM   #15
Head-Space
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2010
Posts: 187
Ohhhhhhhh please!

"Defense" -- punch a large hole, deep, and at high velocity. Works for elephants, works for two-legged skunks.

22 LR is like stabbing someone with an ice pick.
Head-Space is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 04:46 AM   #16
RT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2000
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 2,191
RT is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 06:39 AM   #17
blume357
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 2, 2005
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 3,943
To answer your followup post...

Yes, you use 22 cal. cleaning equipment to clean the .223. I like a bore snake and a tooth brush over all the rods and wire brushes they want to sell you.

bore snake, tooth brush, roll of toilet paper and a can of spray Breakfree CLP is all you need.
blume357 is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 09:39 AM   #18
TX Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2010
Location: East Texas USA
Posts: 1,776
Any Gun is better than no gun when your defending your life from an attacker.
But for Dedicated Home Defense, I would not recomend a .22 Rimfire or a .223
The Rimfire, is not powerfull eneough to stop an attacker consistantly in his tracks. I know because I hunt Racoon with the Cartridge, and often times have to re-shoot them. The .223 is powerfull eneough, but can easily shoot through sheet Rock Walls, and kill a Family Member in the next room.
For Home Defense, I would Recomend a Short, Pistol Grip, 12 Guage loaded with Birdshot.
TX Hunter is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 12:35 PM   #19
RockyMtnTactical
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2006
Location: Western US
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
I would Recomend a Short, Pistol Grip, 12 Guage loaded with Birdshot.
Birdshot is a terrible choice for home defense. It won't likely penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.

I'm gonna tell you something you probably don't want to hear. Anything that will reliably stop a home intruder and hit vital organs will probably be a threat to someone in the next room if drywall is all that is between them and you.

So, aim carefully.

That said, how many stories do you know of people hitting innocents when shooting at bad guys? You'd think cops must do it all the time. They don't carry birdshot type ammo.
RockyMtnTactical is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 12:37 PM   #20
CPTMurdoc30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2008
Location: Stafford VA
Posts: 969
You shoot someone at 15 to 25 yards and your going to have a very hard time saying Self Defense no matter what.
__________________
Solving Virginia's Ground Hog problems 50gr at a time.....
CPTMurdoc30 is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 01:05 PM   #21
p99guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2004
Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area)
Posts: 1,506
If you had worked around a ER and seen a few brought in shot at inside the house distances with 12 ga birdshot you would have a better picture....now its a whole lot different when they get outside and you pepper them at your back fence....inside the house it will endeed put a face of a fist size hole right through the ribcage, or completely sever a forearm(when you are used to seeing pistol wounds it will impress the heck out of you) .....I've seen it, touched it, and personally tucked the unlucky burgler in the icebox.
I have also seen several that were shot with the same, at backyard distances and they usually live, though fixing them was more than a little painful for them lol. ( I was a County Hospital District Policeman back then)
And have retained Crime scene Detective friends that I still talk to weekly on
what they have observed in recent shootings/killings(no we don't discuss confidential case info....just observed effects) Its allways educational.
__________________
Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"
p99guy is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 01:08 PM   #22
johnwilliamson062
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 6,791
myself and many other members started out with a 22lr that was not only a plinker, but our only defensive firearm. Once we got serious about defense, I moved out of a house with 5 guys with almost always one of us home to a house with a 90 year old woman who has trouble getting out of her chair, we got something a little heftier.

IF you are thinking about a 22lr i would guess you aren't too serious about self defense. When you get serious you will leave the 22 to plinking and get something better for SD.
Quote:
You shoot someone at 15 to 25 yards and your going to have a very hard time saying Self Defense no matter what.
BS. I have shots within my house that are 15 yards. If someone is outside my house shooting in from 50 yards, even if over their back while retreating, I don't think I will have much trouble in court.

I want to see a gel test where they empty each gun into a block of ballistic gel. PMR 30 is on my buy list.
__________________
$0 of an NRA membership goes to legislative action or court battles. Not a dime. Only money contributed to the NRA-ILA or NRA-PVF. You could just donate to the Second Amendment Foundation
First Shotgun Thread First Rifle Thread First Pistol Thread

Last edited by johnwilliamson062; May 21, 2010 at 01:25 PM.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 01:26 PM   #23
p99guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2004
Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area)
Posts: 1,506
CPTMurdock....15 to 25 yards is defensible if they have a weapon capable of hurting you at that distance, and the circumstance leaves you little choice but to employ deadly force. even with a knife 21 feet is the absolute minimum safe distance to allow yourself time to react and get a shot off if they lunge at you(heck they teach that in CHL class and Police academy)

the tests that have been done, and introduced by expert witnesses in Court cases have shown the legal profession that 15 to 25 yards isnt that safe in confrontations of any kind, to be considered excessive where a weapon is envolved. It just don't take long to close that distance.

If somebody is doing thier darndest to shoot you with a scoped deer rifle at 300yds,
and you cap his happy arse with yours...The Grand Jury is going to likely no bill you because shooting him back was the reasonable thing to do. 300 yds is well withen the range of such weapon, and was a deadly threat.

it all has to do with the totallity of the circumstance.
__________________
Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"
p99guy is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 01:56 PM   #24
RockyMtnTactical
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 2006
Location: Western US
Posts: 1,957
Quote:
If you had worked around a ER and seen a few brought in shot at inside the house distances with 12 ga birdshot you would have a better picture....now its a whole lot different when they get outside and you pepper them at your back fence....inside the house it will endeed put a face of a fist size hole right through the ribcage, or completely sever a forearm(when you are used to seeing pistol wounds it will impress the heck out of you) .....I've seen it, touched it, and personally tucked the unlucky burgler in the icebox.
I have also seen several that were shot with the same, at backyard distances and they usually live, though fixing them was more than a little painful for them lol. ( I was a County Hospital District Policeman back then)
My mom and sister work in the ER of a busy Metro city. I hear stories. I know that getting shot with birdshot at close range would not be a pleasant experience. But, will it stop a determined intruder?

Yes, it could work. Lots of things could work, including a .22LR, a sharp stick or even a baseball bat. Better than nothing.

However, birdshot is not an acceptable load for someone really serious about home defense just like a .22LR is not.
RockyMtnTactical is offline  
Old May 21, 2010, 02:06 PM   #25
ESI Agent
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 6, 2004
Posts: 415
We were trained that the suspect must have three elements.
1.The abitliy
2.The opportunity
3. And expressed intent.
Put simply you must be in fear for your live or the life of another.
ESI Agent is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15804 seconds with 9 queries