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Old May 19, 2010, 11:14 PM   #1
mothermopar
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Law Enforcement Training

Let's keep this to the topic so it doesn't get closed.

Going along the theme of the closed thread about how much firearms training police get...

Some said that taxpayers should pay for minimal amounts of police training, citing that those in the private sector need to finance their own careers with licenses, tools, educational programs, etc... That 'we' already give too much money to the gov...

I take great exception to this. First, our tax dollars are misused and misapprpriated by the people we elect (end of politcal statement).
Second, cops are taxpayers too. Third, those cops you want to train minimally are the same ones who may come to save your family in your darkest hour, or take out the armed robber at the store or arrest the child killer... You want to make sure they are trained minimally?!

Additionally, cops (in most agencies) need a college degree... Who pays for that? Most cops have to supply at least some of their own equipment... Or purchase the higher quality stuff.

Then, add in all of the other law enforcement factors that effect your life in other ways, and you minimalists tell me who's getting the short stick! What profession has one of if not the highest rates of suicide and divorce...

Alot of cops do conduct additional training on their own, some don't. That's their own call... But to limit what's available to them is idiotic and the thinking of a person who knows nothing of the profession and harbor some unjustified resentment towards cops as a whole.
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Old May 20, 2010, 03:17 PM   #2
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When I was a auto mechanic, I paid for my degree, yep 2 year. I paid for my tools, over 30 grand and that was 20 years ago. I also paid for further training in my area of expertise. I made less than my cousin same age who was a LEO here.

He bought uniforms and his side arm. used to kid me a lot on that one.
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Old May 20, 2010, 03:26 PM   #3
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Cops have to make themselves into hiring prospects, just like anyone else... so I don't get it.

Cops perform a public service and we the taxpayer should flip the bill for most of their equipment and training. We do it for the military and often, we the people (non liberal loons) demand that our military be given more of the best. Why is it SO different for our law enforcement? They fight the fight at home... the military does it overseas.

The taxpayer pays the bills financially so that the cop can put his/her flesh on the line to do their job. Its a trade-off, IMO.

I don't think cops should be equipped with Abrams tanks and stealth bombers, but come on.

Some people get all upset and take out their personal frustrations and career choices by bashing/criticizing other's. Makes no sense.
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Old May 20, 2010, 03:41 PM   #4
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I don't think cops should be equipped with Abrams tanks and stealth bombers, but come on.
Well, come up with a training regimen that *you* think would be appropriate for the rank-and-file police officers (not the SWAT/HRT types). We really can't talk in terms of "reasonable" or "excessive" unless we know what you're proposing.

I'm in the military, and my requirements consist of annual qualifications with the rifle and pistol (40 rounds for the rifle, 48 rounds for the pistol.) I think that's appropriate, because I'm not an infantryman, I'm a fixed-wing aviator. If I find myself within small-arms distance of the enemy, it's already been a very bad day at Fraggle Rock.

The police are not a military organization, or even a paramilitary one - you simply can't compare the level of risk between cops and soldiers.
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Old May 23, 2010, 01:02 AM   #5
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Well more would always be better. In the US Most LE Departments fall into one of 3 types as far as firearms training goes.
1st is annual qualification with 50 rds for the hand gun and 8 to 10 for shotgun.
2nd is bi annual 50 rds handgun and 8 to 10 shotgun.
These are the most popular as ammo is expensive. Time is expensive.
The third is quarterly with 50 handgun and 8 to 10 shotgun. (very rare)
The rifle has gotten popular in the last few years for patrol and if issued is given on the same day as regular qualification 10 to 30 rounds.
One of the reasons that firearms training is hard thing to do more of is time. The time that officers are in training they are not providing the service that they are hired for and even before budgets were tight removing officers from regular duty means replacing them with overtime. Lets not forget most States have other mandatory training that must be attended. Most departments add on department specific training. Lets not forget if the officer is in a specialized field such as SWAT, SORT, ERT, CERT or hostage negotiation. Training time goes up (mandatory) more overtime for the department. What I am saying is that each department has to look at what best suits 1 need and 2 budget.
As far a officers getting training on there own I think they should go out to a range and shoot a few times a year but a large number will not. The attitude is that if they are not getting paid they will not do it. Not all, it is about a 50/50 split. Just to give you an idea of what really goes on.
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Old May 23, 2010, 07:22 AM   #6
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What profession has one of if not the highest rates of suicide and divorce...
Psychiatry
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Old May 23, 2010, 12:40 PM   #7
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I don't have it, . . . but if I did have a public range that I owned, . . . all LEO and military would shoot for free, . . . and the first box of ammo every month would be on me.

Soon as my rich uncle gets off welfare, we're gonna start one

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Old May 23, 2010, 01:28 PM   #8
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considering all the police related gun accidents, and the SWAT teams busting into the wrong house and killing Citizens, maybe we should pay for more training than they are getting now?
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Old May 23, 2010, 03:09 PM   #9
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No one thinks much about firetrucks either till they need one. When you need one, you need one bad. It better get there fast, it better be big, it better be red, and it better pump alot of water.

Who should pay for that.
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Old May 23, 2010, 03:27 PM   #10
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If I am not mistaken, doesnt every State have its own Police Office Standard of Training? Isnt every LEO agency trained to this standard or more? No matter how much or where the money comes from, I do not think anyone is being trained to a lesser degree than what is mandated by the State. When talking about training, there can always be more. I would agree that when talking about dangerous jobs, more is certainly better than less. At some point, someone has to decide what is reasonable training for the task and that is usually how standards are developed.
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Old May 23, 2010, 05:22 PM   #11
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The level of police firearms training depends mostly on the amount of competing training. We, as "gun people" tend to think of firearms training as the most important, but police officers also receive training in areas like the law; police driving (not the same as civilian driving); anatomy and first aid (including delivering babies); subduing suspects (without use a deadly weapon); use of the baton, taser and other "non-lethal" weapons; interface with the public (including taking abuse); diplomacy (settle the domestic argument without force on either side); psychology; and on and on.

Then there is physical training. We see real cops on TV climbing walls and running down a fleeing suspect. Do you think those guys got into that shape by accident? They trained and trained hard.

With all that and more on the "training plate", firearms training is not pushed aside, but it is not the only training area. Remember, that to a police officer, a firearm is a tool, not a hobby. He needs to be proficient in the use of the tools of his trade. In that respect, he is no different than a carpenter who needs to know how to use a hammer - he does not need to collect hammers, or make them his hobby.

I think that, for the most part, firearms training in police academies is given about the right priority and the right amount of time.

(Someone said that if one were in danger, better police firearms could save lives. True, but if you are injured in an accident and bleeding, would you want a police officer who knew how to shoot, or one who also knew how to apply a tourniquet?)

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Old May 23, 2010, 05:41 PM   #12
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I used to be a Federal Agent. During initial training, each trainee expended thousands of rounds of factory new JHP .40 ammo. Each day we were reminded by the Director of Training to shoot as much as we could so the Agency could have their budget increased.

During Recurrent training (every six months) we shot with government provided factory new JHP ammo. However, we were not provided any ammo to play with on our own, only what we squirreled away in our BDU's during training. As each Agent/Operative was more or less an individual with unique situations, practice was at the discretion of each individual. If one wanted to hone his precision/marksmanship, the only thing provided was a business write-off on our individual taxes.
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:04 AM   #13
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There's a lot more to being a police officer than marksmanship. I think more of the available training dollars and training hours should go into improving tradecraft. Building relationships with people in the district, running CIs, being the face of the Department, improving their methods on the street to produce compliant suspects.

I have a buddy who has been with the NYPD for nearly two decades, he loves to tell stories about the violent guys with rap sheets a mile long who thank him when he puts them in jail, all because of what he said and how he worked with the guy.
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Old May 24, 2010, 02:42 PM   #14
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Just one old dinosaurs perspective but my take is they issue the men guns and put them on the street to protect my friends, family, property and me. I want that officer to be able to shoot well. If it takes time and money it takes time and money, well worth the cost.

On the other hand living in the real world I suggest doing like I used to have my students do. Get a 22 and buy all the ammo for it they could afford. Practice seriously, coach each other, work on improving rapid fire, long distance shooting, shooting off hand and from behind barricades, from a sitting position, anything that they might encounter on duty. Then practice with a box of ammo once a month or so with their service gun. Wasn't what gun they shoot that made the difference but how much and the quality of their practice time. It works and most anybody getting a regular paycheck can afford to buy a box of bulk 22 ammo.
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Old May 24, 2010, 03:18 PM   #15
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It's funny that someone mentions the fire department. Once upon a time there was no public city operated fire department. There were variations of private and volunteer fire companies but they wouldn't put out just anyone's fire. You had to have their little badge on the front of your house. That's what those antique looking things are that you see in a few old towns in the East. If you lived out in the country, you were out of luck. Even today, you're pretty much out of luck if you live out in the country some places. Insurance? You can't afford it if there's no fire department. In town, however, someone finally had the bright idea that it might not be such a bad idea to put out every fire before the whole town burned down.

Likewise with the police. Regular police departments were a long time coming and armed policemen (with firearms, that is) were even later. Other places folks relied on constables (the J.P.'s man), the sheriff (the county judge's man) and US Marshalls in unorganized territories, which has been a while. Standards varied greatly, all were low. Things have changed.

I would have to say that many departments might prefer to train their own police recruits rather than having to retrain someone's own ideas of law enforcement. And I suspect many recruits in both the police and the military are a little let down when they realize that things may not always be exactly the way they thought they'd be. As for the military, I sort of think that it was harder for volunteers than draftees when the army didn't measure up to their own expectations.

Marines never have that problem.
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Old May 24, 2010, 03:47 PM   #16
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No one thinks much about firetrucks either till they need one. When you need one, you need one bad. It better get there fast, it better be big, it better be red, and it better pump alot of water.

Who should pay for that.
We the citizens of Crescent have paid for all of our fire dept items by having a pancake feed each month. All new trucks, gear is paid 1/2 for the personal stuff like coats and hats etc.

I see it as in any profession. The pro will try to stay sharp and up to date on his own, and many do.
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:59 PM   #17
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I'm gladf the citizens of Cresent get together and pay for that stuff. Is it an unpaid, volunteer fire department?
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:21 AM   #18
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I don't want to talk too much about the fire department, seeing as how this is a guns forum, but there are all sorts of variations in the organization of fire departments. In Northern Virginia, there are stations that are are staffed partly by paid firemen, or fire fighters, as the term is now, and some that are entirely volunteer. I know of one near Charlestown, West virginia, that has a big sign on their building that said "Strictly Volunteer." And that is clear enough.

There is some variation in police departments. The police in the town where I went to college utilized a police reserve for days when there was a home football game and the town was packed with people. You could tell them because their uniforms were cut in a slightly old fashioned way. But I never hear of a police reserve around here (Northern Virginia) ever mentioned in the paper, yet I think there is one. They tend to be around when the police department has an open house.

You think we could buy patrol cars and pistols with bake sales?
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Old May 25, 2010, 03:36 PM   #19
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Is it an unpaid, volunteer fire department?
Yes, dispatch is county run tho now they all got together and made it work. The Chief is paid a small amount. We are a small community but we all get together and get it done. kinda like a mayberry rfd kinda place.
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