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Old May 20, 2010, 05:14 AM   #26
corvairkid64
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Being an admitted newbie to shotguns and on a limited budget, I'll have to stick with my fencepost for a while. Taking it to an indoor target range this morning and then to a trap/skeet range this afternoon. I haven't had the opportunity to try the higher end guns that many of you recommend, so I don't have a frame of reference to compare against my "B".
I think I've caught the bug to buy another gun in my future though and I do have a soft spot for side-by-sides. Any recommendations for a good quality one?
Approx. cost?
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Old May 20, 2010, 07:14 AM   #27
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I think I've caught the bug to buy another gun in my future though and I do have a soft spot for side-by-sides. Any recommendations for a good quality one?
Approx. cost?
One of the better budget-conscious SxS's would be the "Uggie", or Ugartechea from Spain. Nicely built.

http://www.doubleshotguns.com/ is the importer, but they are sold by several folks.

With a base model starting about $1500, you should be able to find a nice used one for less.
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Old May 20, 2010, 08:28 AM   #28
corvairkid64
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Thanks oneounceload.
The Ugartecheas are nice looking guns and the price range for the box locks is reasonable.
Could be a possible step-up from my "B".
How are they for over-all quality, durability, parts availability?
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Old May 20, 2010, 09:00 AM   #29
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Their base model doesn't have the finish done as nicely as their higher-end guns, but that is the same for any maker. Boxlocks also tend to be a lot less than sidelocks - some will laud the sidelock, others curse it. The boxlock is just as reputable, IMO, as the sidelock and I feel, a little stronger. AyA has their base model called the 4/53 - sold through many with Cabela's being the bigger importer/seller. I would rank the Uggie on par with the AyA - and that gun is $3500. LGS sells them, there are many good folks who can fix them.

If you go to shotgunworld.com and scroll ALL the way down to the "I love my XXX" section, there's one for the Spanish guns. You'll find a lot of info from folks who own them and have had repairs done, etc. Ask away, they'll be glad to help, give advice and opinions, and compare/contrast with the others.
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Old May 20, 2010, 07:12 PM   #30
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Thanks oneounceload!

You've been very helpful!

By the way.... shot over 150 rounds today... my shoulder hurts, but I'm a happy 61 yr. old man!
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Old May 21, 2010, 12:15 AM   #31
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I would definitely heed the advice given here to buy high if you intend to hit accurately with both barrels at distance.

On the other hand, I love my inexpensive little Stoeger Coach Gun. I bought it for cowboy action shooting and have seen a heck of a lot of shooters do exceptionally well with these - at relatively close range! Of course, the application is fairly large targets at fairly close range. Both barrels of mine hit well regulated - at close distances. I haven't even bothered with any distant targets.

For home defense or closer in work, I think you can be quite well served with a double that doesn't cost big bucks.

For distance and moving targets, go with a single or part with the money for a really good double.
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Old May 21, 2010, 05:34 AM   #32
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SXS

Great thread. Lots of good info. Used is good.
All of my SXSs were bought used, except for an inexpensive IZH-43 that was my first (got a good review from American Rifleman as a starter SG). The others are all older guns and come up to my shoulder like they were fitted for me - two Ithaca Flues, a Le Fever, and a Parker VH. I treat them carefully - nothing heavier than target loads (which have proven just fine for pheasant and grouse). Some folk, depending on their intended use might find that approach too limiting. I have been taking the Parker to the Trap range since my recent discovery of that sport. Shot a 20/25 the other day on my fourth trip to the range - not remarkable but my best so far. One of the "never-miss-Ljutic" shooters said to me "you're doing ok with that gun". The point being that the old, used guns work just fine and are worth thinking about. None of them cost more me than $400.
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Old May 21, 2010, 05:40 AM   #33
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My Elsie was made in 1909 and the guy I bought it from was turkey hunting with it using 3 inch magnum #4's. It's still as tight as the day it was made.
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Old May 24, 2010, 07:22 AM   #34
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Hawg Haggen: I have an old double made around 1905,

very tight and solid and it hits what I point it at. I plan on taking it after birds this fall. It is a Crescent-US made sidelock with 30" barrels M&F, and it is just fine with 2 3/4" game loads. Needed some cleaning up, but is looking pretty good right now.



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Old May 24, 2010, 09:42 AM   #35
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It is a Crescent-US made sidelock with 30" barrels M&F, and it is just fine with 2 3/4" game loads.
Was it originally chambered for 2-3/4 or 2-1/2? Many folks may not realize that an unfired 2-3/4 WILL fit in a gun chambered for 2-1/2 as the shell length is measured on a fired hull. The issue becomes pressure, and many guns built around the turn of the last century just aren't strong enough for a dose of over-pressure. If your gun was originally built for 2-3/4, I would still not feed it the current uber-powered loads, but go with your basic 1200fps loadings like those found in most target loads
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Old May 24, 2010, 11:46 AM   #36
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Just yesterday I took the Baikal IZH-43 (to which I referred in post #32) to the trap range. I was shooting with a bunch of other duffers and that inexpensive SXS did as well in my inexpert hands as any of the guns that the other guys were shooting; I missed only one on stations 2-3-4. Station 5 was another matter entirely but that wasn't the gun's fault. Now....will that gun last at the volume that some of these fellows shoot? I suspect not but, for now, it works.
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Old May 24, 2010, 12:07 PM   #37
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Now....will that gun last at the volume that some of these fellows shoot? I suspect not but, for now, it works.
No, it won't - but then again, it wasn't built for that task. There are reasons competition-grade, game-specific guns cost what they do - they are built to shoot targets numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Even the best of the best game guns from Purdey et al, are not built for that usage - many of them are sent in yearly after the "shooting season" for a minor tune-up. If it works for you, then enjoy it and have fun. If you ever decide that a particular game is for you, you'll appreciate the difference. Until that time - have at it!
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Old May 24, 2010, 12:30 PM   #38
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"A Beretta or Fausti would not have fatigued that quickly and would probably not have broken, yet."

In the late 1980s a friend brought his new Citori to the range, all proud of himself that he was able to afford a new gun.

He fired his first two shots.

Reloaded.

Closed the breech.

Bottom barrel fired.

Did it several more times.

His $1,000 or so shotgun, had taken exactly two shots for the trigger mechanism to fail badly.
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Old May 24, 2010, 05:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by oneounceload
CZ's are still Turkish, and while getting somewhat better they aren't really there yet - the main issues seem to still be the triggers and barrel regulation. I'm not saying 100% are trash; rather it is a hit and miss proposition
I've owned a CZ Bobwhite 20g for about a year now. While it may not be a high end gun, it has held up well enough and my scores at trap/skeet/wobble are up a bit from the 12g 870 I was using before. I only have 250rnds through it so far, but no problems yet.

Chris
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Old May 25, 2010, 10:17 AM   #40
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Not to be overly simplistic -- but Browning makes about 25 models of their Citori lineup of guns -- that range in price today from about $ 1,750 - to around $4,000 ....and in a wide variety of specs for field shooting, Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays. The barrel connection on all the models are identical, I think ?, and the barrels, firing pins, springs, ejectors, etc look like they are all made to similar specs .... adj combs, quality of wood, etc are part of the difference... But when someone says "Citori" ...I always wonder which gun they're talking about ?

I also would never say Browning doesn't have an issue once in a while ...or Beretta ...etc / but hands down, I think you will find a Browning or a Beretta will give you a much better long term shotgun than anything made from Stoeger, CZ, etc ....and I think that is seen in the used gun market today on both the Browning and Beretta O/U's.

What none of us can measure on these cheaper O/U's is the quality of the steel in the receivers, barrels, springs, etc ....but for my vote, until these less expensive guns can prove they will last ( where 95% of the guns they make ) will perform with no issues for at least 50,000 shells ... I won't trust them / and I will continue to buy and shoot my Browning O/U's.
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Old May 25, 2010, 11:40 AM   #41
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I've owned a CZ Bobwhite 20g for about a year now......... I only have 250rnds through it so far, but no problems yet.
Therein lies the issue for me - I'm glad your scores are up - usually indicates this gun fits better than the 870; however, 250 rounds is something I might shoot in one or two days, not one year. Notwithstanding that, the Bobwhite is not a target gun by design, and for many folks, 250 rounds might be a year's worth of bird-hunting usage (Argentina dove excluded ), and if it is working - great! Hopefully, you'll get many more year's worth of trouble-free shooting from it. As I said before, right NOW, they seem to be hit or miss; in time, I am sure they'll get to the point of reliability and reputation where folks will clamor for one like they do now for Browning and Beretta
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Old May 25, 2010, 06:51 PM   #42
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Took my old 311 out for a couple of rounds of skeet today. Managed a person best of 23. Also shot a double from the 2 post with a 28 ga Perazzi. Well a single really, missed the hi house because I didn't release the trigger far enough to reset. You'd think for that kind of money they could afford to put another trigger on that thing. Still, sure was sweet.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:15 PM   #43
corvairkid64
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OkieCruffler

Love hearing things like that about old 311's! Nice to know they still have some life in them. My B seems to be performing the same way.
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:15 PM   #44
oneounceload
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Managed a person best of 23. Also shot a double from the 2 post with a 28 ga Perazzi. Well a single really, missed the hi house because I didn't release the trigger far enough to reset. You'd think for that kind of money they could afford to put another trigger on that thing.
Perazzi will put anything you want on one of their guns - and most personal touches aren't extra.......
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Old May 25, 2010, 07:46 PM   #45
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At $10K+ they should come with 2 triggers, 4 barrels and a half dozen swedish virgins to carry it for you.

My 311 really shouldn't shoot well, It's choked full and "almost but not quite as full" or as my grandpappy said when I ask him, "It's choked right and left." LOP is about 2 inches shorter than I'd like it to be. But after 2 dozen years I've pretty much gotten used to it.
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Old May 28, 2010, 08:23 AM   #46
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The less expensive SXS will entice you to spend again some day on an expensive one. That's what happened to me. I had a few Baikals, a Hugo, and some other brands both SXS and O/U since 1978. What they all did was convince me the two barreled shotgun is much more dynamic than a single barreled repeater.
The doubles are two guns in one with two separate firing barrels and systems. They have to be joined to make them uniquely one and that is where the money starts pouring in....
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Old May 28, 2010, 04:36 PM   #47
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Was at Dugan's Gun Shop in Hughesville, PA today - looking for shot - no joy. Looked at shotguns instead.

They had two very serviceable 311s for $259.00 and $279.00. They also had a Ugie O/U 12 ga in very nice shape for $350. One of the 311s, I know for sure has been there for ten years. It's not a SXS kind of area.

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Old May 28, 2010, 07:11 PM   #48
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It's not a SXS kind of area.
Those are the kind of places I love to browse through, because you can find some real gems as older folks die off and families sell those "old guns" from the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.........typically at some great prices
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Old May 28, 2010, 07:29 PM   #49
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Well, you've got your wine snobs and you've got your shotgun snobs. Most of the wine snobs I know can't pick out expensive wines from good but less expensive wines in blind taste tests. (There are exceptions to that rule of course, and even I can distinguish real rotgut from good wine.) Similarly, most of the gun snobs I know can't shoot any better than I can with my very modestly priced guns. (There are exceptions to that rule too. I'm not the greatest shot in the world; just adequate, and I think that the people who can outshoot me could probably outshoot me if we traded guns.) But I have to admit, I do sometimes feel real lust in my heart for one of those beautiful expensive doubles. It's just that my practical nature won't allow me to buy one. Everytime I have $5,000 to spend on a gun, I start thinking about how much money I could make with that $5,000 if I invested it in real estate or tobacco allotments, or in barrels of Scotch whisky, or if I bought 30 or 40 low priced military surplus import guns and held them for a few years and then sold them, or if I just put it the money into a CD. Thinking that way is what put my kids through college and allowed me to retire with a boat and a house on the river. But the gun lust is always there and it has nothing to do with what the gun itself will do. Its about what that gun would do for me. Anytime the urge gets too bad, I go to a gun store and fondle one.
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Old May 28, 2010, 09:52 PM   #50
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Well DG - now that you're retired, buy that nice SxS and enjoy it!!!!
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