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Old May 12, 2010, 09:18 PM   #1
kdog70
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Right situation for use of Pistol?

lets just call this a hypothetical situation.....for the time being.

430 pm

I pick up my brand new Sig two-some from the gun shop and run to the range to run 200 rounds of ammo. Shoots great love it holster it and drive home. Got my 3 wt fly rod and ultra lite spinning rod in the back decide to trout fish. Decide what the hell mise well carry it. So down the a small stream that runs just outside the city limits maybe a half mile from the closest residential area.

Two beautiful trout later and 1/2 mile down stream a group of 4 teenagers confronts me, we chit chat, then they demand my wallet. hypothetically I am a 6 5 300 pound X college football, X semi pro football Tackle so not exactly small. Our conversation goes like this.
Them "Give me your wallet"
Me "What?"
Them "Give me your wallet or else"
Me " Or else What?"
Them "Your out numbered and out weapon ed you have a fishing rod and thats all..."

Observation time, No weapons scene at the time, they are getting ansy but not really in a fighting stance. Less than two yards between us.

I say no again and they produce two small pocket knifes. I back up saying, Just let me go and we wont have a problem, Just walk away. They took one step towards me and I draw from a holster sitting at 5 o clock in my waistband. one thing leads to another and we make it back, No shots fired and the cops haul them out and the cops calls me the bad guy....
sorry to cut it short but my relaxing drink after a bad hypothetical situation starting to take its effect.
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:28 PM   #2
ScottRiqui
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No matter how big you are, you're outnumbered 4:1 and they're attempting to rob you with an implied threat of violence (the "or else" part.) At that point you're more than justified in drawing your pistol. In fact, since they drew knives, you'd be justified in shooting them, but if you can safely de-escalate the situation from there, more power to you.
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:28 PM   #3
SouthCali
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Lets see. Four (4) guys attempt to rob you and are ARMED with deadly weapons. Your life is in danger, and at that distance a lung with knives would happen in a blink of an eye.

Where are you from, are you allowed to be carrying the weapon?

nonetheless

that cop, is an assclown......hypothetically of course
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:29 PM   #4
AcridSaint
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If a knife was produced then it seems like there was means and opportunity, the part you have to answer for yourself is intent.
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:29 PM   #5
SQUAREKNOT
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I would not say anything to the cops except the fact they had knives and you were threatened. Then get a lawyer. They have you out numbered but if you let them run their mouths and the cops play fair they will convict themselves. I fear the same type of situation (s) I would like to say more
but don;t want to get bite in the **s later if I were to have that happen to me. Good luck
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:30 PM   #6
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Well seeing that your a pretty big guy my guess is that this would not happen to "you" but, you never know? IMO (not having had a steps to lethal force course yet) if you are being threatened with your life and they are showing weapons then your are stupid not to draw your weapon and if needed use it.
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Old May 12, 2010, 09:32 PM   #7
dsa1115
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I'd tell them if they want to live, to put away their cub scout knives and beat it.
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Old May 12, 2010, 10:08 PM   #8
Teuthis
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The moment someone threatens you and demands your wallet, do not give them any further tactical advantage. Draw your weapon before they draw theirs. You have a right to protect yourself. No matter how large you are, if they get their knives out first, you are very likely to get stuck; probably more than once. Then, even if you win, you lose.
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Old May 12, 2010, 10:14 PM   #9
ScottRiqui
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I realize this may not be a popular option, but if you've got four guys within six feet of you with knives drawn and your pistol is still in its holster, you might consider tossing them your wallet as you back away.

If they charge, you'll be hard-pressed to come out on top even if you manage to clear leather, and if you do prevail, you can almost count on their being at least one civil suit. And you can ask anyone that's gone through one - even successfully defending yourself in a civil suit will cost you more money than you could carry in twenty wallets.

Of course, it's a judgement call as to whether giving up your wallet will end the encounter, but if nothing else it might give you the opportunity for a little more time & distance.
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Old May 12, 2010, 11:20 PM   #10
WESHOOT2
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I issue a disclaimer

Since I am a cripply weak-looking sort, I've now taken to verbalizing a simple statement: "Warning; continued aggression may result in serious injury or death".

It sounds scarier in real life.......
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Old May 12, 2010, 11:21 PM   #11
AFSG
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Four armed against one at two yards? I hope you have had plenty of tactical drills under your belt. If these guys are a street gang your in serious danger. Stories like this is the reason I carry a full power handgun. No room for a mouse gun in this situation. You don't get to pick your fights so carry something that is likley to work real well.
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Old May 12, 2010, 11:29 PM   #12
GunsAreGood
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From what i read I feel you where very justified in pulling your sidearm and those kids are lucky to not be shot. You handled yourself fine IMO. The only thing that may make you look like the bad guy is if you had been carrying a weapon in a area that was not allowed.
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Old May 13, 2010, 06:59 AM   #13
Daryl
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Well, (hypothetically, of course) were you cited for something?

The officer is entitles to his/her opinion, but if they didn't charge you, and did charge the punks, then you aren't the "bad guy".

But you live in a different world than I do. Michigan is a long ways from Arizona in more ways than miles.

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Old May 13, 2010, 07:55 AM   #14
EdInk
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Hypothetically, as long as the gun was legal to carry, then I see nothing wrong with what you did in the situation.

And to make light of a heavy situation....

If the hypothetical location was hypothetically very isolated.... There could hypothetically be less hypothetical deliquents and hypothetical less hungry animals is in hypothetical forest. The hypothetical gun would need to be on the hypothetical boat that sunk in the hypothetical river.

Hypothetically speaking.

The last part was OBVIOUSLY just a joke but I think you were well within tour rights as a citizen.
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Old May 13, 2010, 12:30 PM   #15
CWPinSC
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Quote:
"Warning; continued aggression may result in serious injury or death".
You got time to say all that? How about, "Stop or I'll shoot you dead."

In SC, you are allowed to shoot if you are fear of your life or of serious bodily injury. Most SD laws have a "disparity of force" clause. That means if you're attacked by 4 guys, or you're a 90 year old grandmother attacked by one fit, young buck, then you can shoot.

If they were within knife-use distance and showed a knife, I'd be dropping the hammer on the closest one. I would have drawn as soon as they said what they were gonna do.
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Old May 13, 2010, 01:01 PM   #16
briandg
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All things considered, from my point of view, the cop was telling you exactly what he had to. the situation may have ended with you shooting 4 punks. In reality, giving them the wallet would have been a better choice than shooting them all, right? So, IMO, this worked out as it should have. You are all alive, and the punks got their wrists slapped. Do you really expect him to praise you for this situation, or do you expect him to discourage you from escalating the situation to where 5 lives were in jeopardy, hanging on nothing more than whether one stupid punk decided to push you a bit harder and you reacted by shooting?

he's there to preserve peace and safety, not your wallet.

Think about how your trial would go, after you kill and wound 4 (two unarmed) punks over a wallet, a 6 feet tall monster who owned a black pistol that you had just bought, and were itching to use.

No, you did the right thing, but so did the cop. It is his duty to keep those damned punks alive, too.
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Old May 13, 2010, 01:01 PM   #17
tackdriver
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Under the circumstances, I would have been scared to death to be confronted out in the middle of nowhere in that way. I'm not as big as you, but even so, I am also not a ninja. I can't fight four people at once, even if they weren't armed. I would have been scared for my life. It gives me chest pains to think about it. When you add knives to the mix, that would have tripped my switch.

Best advice is to keep the rest of this to yourself and to consult with an attorney before talking to ANYONE else about it

Last edited by tackdriver; May 13, 2010 at 01:08 PM.
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Old May 13, 2010, 03:14 PM   #18
FreakGasolineFight
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You were totally justified but I'm not surprised the cops don't see it that way. There are a lot of cops that strongly resent civilian's right to carry.

You handled yourself perfectly. Congrats.
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Old May 13, 2010, 04:05 PM   #19
Glenn Dee
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IMO.. as a cop type

You would have been perfectly justified in using deadly force. Even if you werent supposed to be carrying. You'd be justified. A police officer may have an opinion.. but just because he's a cop dont make it law.

Hypothetically... You were totally justified, and the Officer was wrong. Hypothetically... The four guys with knives was very lucky it was you and not me.

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Old May 13, 2010, 04:20 PM   #20
briandg
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One of the things every person must remember, though, is that there are grave consequences for armed action, no matter how justified it was. Think back on bernard gates. the old man in the donut shop. the nut in texas who shot the punk in the back in his neighbor's yard.

As much as we want to, we can't make the decision to shoot just on our own personal and subjective feelings of justification, which are almost certainly not going to agree with those of the rest of the community, who will make up the law enforcement, judicial, and even the juries who would send my but to the joint if I shot 4 teenagers because two of them brandished a knife.

The poster exercised proper restraint. he handled himself properly. the situation turned out well. There could have been death and injury, and there would have been bad things afterwards, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Old May 13, 2010, 04:47 PM   #21
CWPinSC
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Quote:
When you add knives to the mix, that would have tripped my switch.
Yup, tripped here, too.

A man is being threatened by 4 youths in the middle of nowhere, two of which hold knives, and people expect him to NOT shoot??? What does it take to be able to defend yourself? Should you let one stab you first?

Many cops are anti-civilian carry. Many also do not fully know the law. That's why they have an Ass. DA and prosecutors to consult, "What can we charge him with" is a common question.

Maybe they would have settled for the wallet and NOT knifed the guy - but is that a chance he could take?

BTW - in SC, merely showing a deadly weapon can be considered "use of deadly force".
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Old May 13, 2010, 05:09 PM   #22
crghss
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Not sure about MI but in FL you are more then justified in shooting them.
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Old May 13, 2010, 05:23 PM   #23
tackdriver
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Quote:
BTW - in SC, merely showing a deadly weapon can be considered "use of deadly force".
Here in Virginia, you can be shot for ruining a man's day like that. New gun -- a Sig no less -- and a perfect afternoon in the trout stream.
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Old May 13, 2010, 05:55 PM   #24
Glenn Dee
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Bernard Goetz was convicted of illegal possesion of a firearm... Not for the shooting. He was charged for shooting one perp a second time... and he said
" YOU DONT LOOK SO BAD.... HOW ABOUT ANOTHER" and shot him a second time.

Bernard Goetz is a poor example of how to not get arrested.

Bernard Goetz is also not the raving racist he's made out to be... He happens to be a pretty decent guy.

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Old May 13, 2010, 06:42 PM   #25
Tom Servo
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Quote:
Bernard Goetz is a poor example of how to not get arrested
He's also a good example of when to shut up and lawyer up. In his interview, he was still high on adrenaline, and he said a few things he shouldn't have in terms of intent.

In any case, this is nothing like that. The OP was threatened with imminent harm, weapons were presented, and he was outnumbered. He did OK.
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