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Old May 10, 2010, 04:40 PM   #51
Doc Intrepid
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The previous two posts are dead on the money (#49 and #50).

Any time you are in a gunfight, generally speaking the person who runs out of rounds first loses. Ask any law enforcement officer who has gone through force on force encounter scenarios.

Badguys tend to not be alone. They work in pairs or carloads. LEO often face scenarios involving multiple adversaries. Logically, so would legally armed civilians (if they encounter scenarios at all).

While there are certainly cases where individuals are targeted by a lone gunman (ex-partner, stalker, enraged former boyfriend, etc.), even a casual reading of court cases will raise the awareness of the average reader that many armed encounters involve more than one adversary.

To a prepared and trained citizen, a high-capacity pistol only means that you don't need to reload quite as soon as would otherwise be the case. Meanwhile, those extra rounds may be all that stand between you and losing.

People need to carry what they are comfortable with and have trained with.

And everyone else needs to accept that there is no one right answer that will suffice for all folks who carry, in all environments and circumstances.
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Old May 15, 2010, 12:03 PM   #52
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If going armed, why NOT carry extra ammo/reloads?
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Old May 15, 2010, 06:19 PM   #53
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shoot out in mundi bahawlddin pakistan

Well here is an odd ball for you. Some of my associates with involved in a land dispute that turned nasty, resulting in a gun fight that lasted for 36 hours before one of the party had a few wounded and low ammo and decided to quit and retreat. About 30 or so people were shooting for 36 hours. You do the math in terms of how much ammo was used since it was a mix of handguns, shotguns and automatic rifles.
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Old May 15, 2010, 11:05 PM   #54
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I have to ask you Firepower!. What was the marksmanship capabilities of the people involved? Was it decent marksmanship, just that nobody exposed themselves too much, or was it "Spray lead in their general direction"? Be that there were some wounded there must have been some people who could shoot.

I hate to be stereotypical, but I just had to ask.
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Old May 16, 2010, 12:19 AM   #55
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I would say most of the guys involved were in spray lead category. The incident took place in really bad part of Pakistan where land means everything these guys. In this part you will hardly find a household where they either have some one killed, they killed some one.
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Old May 16, 2010, 12:07 PM   #56
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For everones sake, let us hope no one teaches them how to shoot effectively.
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Old May 16, 2010, 12:31 PM   #57
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If you don't know how to reload, then having hicaps are important...I will put up any decent single stack shooter against a newbie with a hicap anyday..

A person can carry as much ammo on his body as he wants...I honestly think more peeps should be worried less about capacity, caliber, kinetic energy, etc, and spend more time shooting and finding a reliable handgun....
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Old May 16, 2010, 12:42 PM   #58
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And if you can shoot, and can reload, the high capacity magazine is not exactly a hinderence. Quite the opposite. All else being equal, I will take the larger capacity.
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Old May 16, 2010, 04:02 PM   #59
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while few gun fights in america need more than 4-5 rounds, extra capacity is always good to have. that said, the best way to end a gun fight with marksmanship. if you can take out your enemy with a few shots, so much the better. but if you need more than say 30 rounds, you have a serious problem.
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Old May 16, 2010, 04:39 PM   #60
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I honestly think more peeps should be worried less about capacity, caliber, kinetic energy, etc, and spend more time shooting and finding a reliable handgun....
What is a 'peep'?
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Old May 16, 2010, 05:05 PM   #61
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peeps=people for those who are too lazy to type the word out fully.
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Old May 16, 2010, 05:13 PM   #62
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Never saw that usage. Thought it meant little fuzzy chicks or some veiled insult.
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Old May 16, 2010, 05:30 PM   #63
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Lol right after fuzzy chicks. Sugary marshmallows are a close second.
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Old May 16, 2010, 05:56 PM   #64
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Last I saw, peeps were still working on mastering sword fighting. Don't think they have graduated to firearms yet.

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Old May 16, 2010, 06:33 PM   #65
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Interesting piece in latest American Handgunner's Ayoob Files. An officer was shot by a criminal seven times (3 in the vest). Bad guy fired 13 rds. from his stolen G21. Officer fired 14 from G22 one handed from the ground while severly wounded.

Yes, I know, citizens and cops have different roles in society, but both have been know to get into gunfights. If you're on the ground, and the perp is still shooting at you, and your lower jaw has been smashed by a bullet, then rules of average rds. fired in a gunfight might not apply whether you're LE or regular 'ol citizen.
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Old May 16, 2010, 09:03 PM   #66
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Peeps is an urban, hip hop, rap, 'gangsta' term, used to signify people. It is often used by white kids who appropriate bits and pieces of black urban culture to "make they selves look all hard", and/or "hip". It does neither. I place it in the catagory of fake grills, big diamond earings and droopy drawers. I guess it is OK if some kid wants to feel like Vanilla Ice or something.
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Old May 17, 2010, 09:19 AM   #67
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If you don't know how to reload, then having hicaps are important...I will put up any decent single stack shooter against a newbie with a hicap anyday..
Did a Force-on-Force class with Simunitions Glocks and 10 round magazines. In order to participate, every trainee had to have had a minimal level of instruction (Basic and Intermediate courses) and in actual practice, all of the trainees were very familiar with firearms (a few Master and Grandmaster IDPA/IPSC shooters present).

Each trainee got two magazines, one in the pistol and one spare. Throughout the various scenarios (the longest of which was maybe 15yds), there were several occasions where people ran their firearms dry. About 50% of the time when this happened, the guy who still had ammo chased down and shot the guy who was trying to reload.

The other 50% basically involved both guys running dry at about the same time or the reloading guy being able to execute the reload in a way that the other shooter never realized that he had run dry.
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Old May 17, 2010, 10:47 AM   #68
Glenn E. Meyer
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Oh, so now I have to worry about what gun Vanilla Ice will carry and with what magazines? Thanks to clue me in.

Anyway, it's that same old argument. You won't need the extra rounds until you need them and don't have them.
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Old May 17, 2010, 10:54 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
Did a Force-on-Force class with Simunitions Glocks and 10 round magazines....

I don't doubt your experience but were these situations designed to replicate reasonably likely real life scenarios?

Two guys (civilian and BG) in an extended 40 round shoot out on the streets is rare. So rare, that I've never seen or heard of an example.
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Old May 17, 2010, 11:12 AM   #70
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I will put up any decent single stack shooter against a newbie with a hicap anyday.
Sure. But I'd put a decent double stack shooter against a newbie with a single stack any day. That's kind of irrelevant. No one's arguing that hi cap trumps all, even experience.

Shot placement is crucially important. Mag capacity somewhat less important, but certainly not unimportant.

I once saw a foaming, rabid dog take eight shots from what I'm pretty sure was a .223 of some sort. It was still alive. The guy with the gun had to back away, get into his pickup, and run it over twice before it finally expired.

The moral of the story is, it never hurts to have too many rounds.
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Old May 17, 2010, 12:46 PM   #71
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I don't doubt your experience but were these situations designed to replicate reasonably likely real life scenarios?
Several of the scenarios were based on actual real-life fact patterns that did occur; however, there are some important differences that could skew the data:

The participants are all very familiar with firearms and are participants in Simunitions training under the instruction of a former Royal Marine Commando. None of the roleplaying "bad guys" ever said "O wow, he has a gun too, let's get out of here!" In every case, they were determined aggressors who would continue the attack until you not only hit them; but hit them in such a way that the referee ruled them dead.

So right away, you have a much higher level of agressiveness in both the attacker and the defender than you would see in a typical encounter where lives are on the line.

Also while interior walls don't block pistol rounds, they block Simunitions rounds quite well - meaning shots that might have ended the fight sooner never landed in our training.

Quote:
Two guys (civilian and BG) in an extended 40 round shoot out on the streets is rare. So rare, that I've never seen or heard of an example.
The 40 rounds assumed both shooters empty their entire ammunition supply. To my knowledge that never happened and only once did someone use all 20 rounds (unsuccessfully it turned out). The 50% I described is where the shooters are in close contact (under 7yds) and can visually see each other and when one shooter runs dry (fires the first ten rounds in his magazine), the other chases him down and shoots him while he tries to reload the next ten. So the round count could be 11 rounds and still fit that description.

I think I reloaded maybe twice the entire course. It has been awhile so the details are foggy for me. And while probably not what you had in mind, here is a civilian and BG (and police) involved in a 116 round shooting, though high-capacity magazines would have made no difference in it.
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Old May 17, 2010, 09:34 PM   #72
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Have never heard anyone involved in a firefight complain that they had too much ammo.
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Old May 18, 2010, 09:37 AM   #73
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Never heard a peep out of anyone!

Yuk, yuk!

It's all your view of risk and where in the probability of an extremely, intense fight and where you want to make the call.
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Old May 18, 2010, 09:41 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartholomew Roberts
I think I reloaded maybe twice the entire course. It has been awhile so the details are foggy for me. And while probably not what you had in mind, here is a civilian and BG (and police) involved in a 116 round shooting, though high-capacity magazines would have made no difference in it.
Yeah, that situation should be used as an example of how NOT to be a hero. If you're going to insert yourself into an active shooter situation, bring more than 7 rounds. Better idea, DON'T insert yourself into an active shooter situation.... or do it with a rifle.
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Old May 19, 2010, 07:46 PM   #75
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How can anyone pooh pooh having high capacity? All other "more important things" being equal, high capacity has zero negatives.

So the only reason I can think of for anyone to argue against high capacity is to justify (as if it needed justification) their choice of low capacity.
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