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Old May 5, 2010, 01:19 AM   #26
cracked91
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For me, its peace of mind. When you do alot of training, you start to realize how quickly your magazine go ESPECIALLY when using lower cap guns. If you don't double tap, it will last longer.

But lets back up for a second. The probability that you will use your gun for anything besides recreation ever is your life as a civilian is probably less that 50%. I think it has been established that in 90% of those instances the presence of your gun is going to defuse the situation. And I have no idea, but I'd guess that around 90% of the times that you do have to fire, its not going to take more than 5 rounds to neutralize the situation.

But when it comes right down to it, as firearm owners/carriers, we are preparing for something that probably won't happen in the first place.

PROBABLY won't happen, but would devastating effects if it did happen.

Its the same principal with carrying an extra mag. Your already carrying something thats taking up space and comfort. You might as well just go all the way and throw that extra mag in your pocket.

You PROBABLY won't ever need to touch it, but it would be devastating if you did need it, and didn't have it.

These are just my personal opinions, and if its a major burden, I won't carry one often either. But my primary carry holds 15 rounds too.
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Old May 5, 2010, 05:55 AM   #27
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I think a big factor is being human, its called panic. A panic shooter is more likely to spray and pray than a focused shooter. There is no 100% way to tell how one will react if the time comes. I think a rule of thumb is how well one responds to high stress situations such as avoiding a head-on collision, a stove fire etc. Not everyone is wired the same and sometimes training can help defeat some of the panic factor.

As for capacity, I have no problem with hi-cap weapons, better safe than sorry. I have carried 8rd weapons and sometimes still do and also carry hi-cap weapons. The truth is most of us will be able to avoid a firefight or never even have to draw a weapon, and many times just the presence of a weapon is enough to deter violence. As far as gang's I just try to avoid these areas at all cost and if I lived in a bad area I would do everything possible to move. I feel no job or anything else is worth endangering my family or myself.
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Old May 5, 2010, 09:51 AM   #28
Brian Pfleuger
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In homes or businesses I know of several examples. I know of none that involved a carry gun, in a "carry situation".

Frankly, anyone who worries about having 15 or 19 shots in his handgun at his place of business or home SHOULD be worrying about using a gun that is a heck of a lot more effective than a handgun. Handguns are for hiding in public. Shotguns are for home and business defense, where the handgun is for back-up. In a home or business you can stow/stash/carry 500 rounds, or 5000, if you feel the need.
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Old May 5, 2010, 10:44 AM   #29
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A real need for High Cap Magazines? Just ask these cops. This was less than a mile of my House. Over 1000 rounds fired and the suspect wasnt even hit. http://<object width="640" height="3...mbed></object>

I cant figure this link thing out. But go to youtube. Type in Shannon Rollins. Look at the Shootout in Huguley.
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Old May 5, 2010, 11:30 AM   #30
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
A real need for High Cap Magazines? Just ask these cops. This was less than a mile of my House. Over 1000 rounds fired and the suspect wasnt even hit.
Since the question is in regards to the LEGALITY of hi-cap mags vs the need, it should be obvious that usage thereof in LE situations is irrelevant. Particularly since the law does not apply to them, but also because they do the OPPOSITE of what a civilian does by intentionally inserting themselves into dangerous/deadly situations.
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Old May 5, 2010, 11:41 AM   #31
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nef, if I remember right, Noah White was rather well entrenched in a house, armed with shotguns and handguns. He put up a heck of a fight, but claimed it was the Sherriff's Office's fault, because they were poorly trained and didn't properly handle the situation. He went to far as to say that if he was aquitted, he would run for Sherriff, and if elected, he would improve Officer training.

Well I checked, and he was found guilty on all seven counts. From people who knew him, including his Father, the story was that he was two men.. one normal, caring person. The other, a powder keg. Him and his father apparently nearly came to physical confrontation over lost sunglasses.

I'm not sure on the 1000-round count, but if so, I would agree the Sherriff's Office probably didn't respond appropriately, but that doesn't excuse White either. From what I've seen, if somebody is barracaded in a house and nobody else is in danger, they begin to attempt negotiation to get him out peacefully. For more urgent situations, calling in a SWAT sniper or gas through a window would be viable alternatives.

Certainly a law enforcement incident where high capacity was a factor is the 1986 FBI Miami shootout. The level of firepower was likewise an issue, as most readers probably know.

On the Civilian side as you ask about, I don't know of any legal actions taken by civilians that required rounds beyond what you could count on your hand. I tried to search for one, but didn't have much luck. Most news stories don't report how many rounds the civilian fired, so it's a tough question to answer.

That said, I love 1911s, but for carry I much prefer the combination of capacity 15+1 (+15) and energy (767ft-lbs) of my Glock 20 or 29.
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Old May 5, 2010, 12:40 PM   #32
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I won't argue that a 5 shot 38 special is enough firearm to deal with 99% of the would be rapists, muggers, car jackers, ect that we will encounter in a 'civilized' society...

But when, not so much if, another Virginia Tech happens, anyone nearby is going to want to be well armed when dealing with an active shooter....
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Old May 5, 2010, 12:48 PM   #33
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Capacity, schamacity... practice hitting your target, use dynamic training, know your weapon and its capabilities, train to reload magazines quickly, get the right mind set and envision and rehearse your response(s) to various threat scenarios you can think of. Keep your gear squared away and enough magazines at the ready.

Practice winning regardless of your weapon.

7 Shot 45 caliber pistols were used to great success in WWII and even today in actual combat (and law enforcement operations) against numerous adversaries hell bent on cutting your head off if they didn't shoot you first... train and train often like above and you'll do just fine against a few turds from the hood (if your issue is gang problems).

IMO: Capacity CAN lead to complacency if you don't train right and have a poor mindset. Hence, spray and pray.
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Old May 5, 2010, 01:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
But when, not so much if, another Virginia Tech happens, anyone nearby is going to want to be well armed when dealing with an active shooter....
Anyone nearby would be smart to make themselves NOT nearby. If they are directly involved, the odds are high that fire power is not the greatest factor.
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Old May 5, 2010, 01:11 PM   #35
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My Glock 17 with 33 round magazines sure is fun.
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Old May 5, 2010, 01:17 PM   #36
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I've mentioned this before, but it's just my personal take on the situation.

Quote:
If someone feels comfortable with that capacity then that is the right choice for them. However I get very irritated when folks try to poo-poo higher capacity carry as being somehow "over the top" since...

1) It's not "right" or "wrong", it's personal choice. You do what feels right for you and leave others to do the same.

2) It's not about the odds, it's about the price you pay if you "win" the bad luck lottery.

3) Nobody ever ended an engagement saying "darn, I just brought too much ammo".

4) Murphy's law is always in play (as illustrated by this story I've told before)
Now this wasn't an actual "self defense" situation, but it was one where the reloads were needed. (Another anecdotal story)

Quote:
During a high stress training class a rookie (actually NOT me this time <grin>) had a double feed stoppage. He’s under the clock and he gets flustered such that he drops the mag on the ground after he pulled it out of the gun (SIG 229) during the clearing drill.

Gamely sticking with the drill he grabs his second mag from the belt and somehow bumps it or does something such that most of the rounds eject from the magazine before he can stuff it in the gun.

So he runs what is left in that mag and goes for his third (and final) magazine and just can’t catch a break because now he’s really thrown off and fumbles that as well, when it hits the ground it lands striking the butt plate right on the edge of the concrete pad and the magazine bursts open tossing parts and rounds all over the place.

Rookie has enough presence of mind to drop to one knee and retrieve the very first mag, dust it off quickly, and jam it in the gun to finish the series.

Total rounds carried on person - 36
Total rounds actually fired - 13 (equal to one full mag plus one. In other words his starting load.)
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Old May 5, 2010, 02:43 PM   #37
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I had a problem with the Klan a few years ago.

I had 40 rounds of 9mm in two magazines. When I made a rough count of the flannel clad crowd, I thought I should have had more.
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Old May 5, 2010, 02:47 PM   #38
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Here's one. Read about the Harry Bekwith incident. http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html
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Old May 5, 2010, 05:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
I had a problem with the Klan a few years ago.

I had 40 rounds of 9mm in two magazines. When I made a rough count of the flannel clad crowd, I thought I should have had more.
They, like the skinheads, deserve the best. Nothing is too much or to good for them.... so excess is defanitly the best way to success. And bring along a shottie while you are at it. Cause the law firm of Smith & Wesson works best with a 12 guage injuction.
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Old May 5, 2010, 06:20 PM   #40
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I think much of the time discussion is based upon the assumption of a close encounter 20 feet or less and a non moving single threat. This is what I call situation bad IDEAL, and IDEAL is what I call SELDOM! Gunfights are fast and violent and as a hunter I have shot quite a few running/bounding deer in the thick New Hampshire woods at 50+ yards with 1 shot kills. Easy, NO, I have burned more ammo trying to hone this skill than I care to say. This brings me to the next paragraph.

Two years ago I emptied a 30-30 at a large buck starting at 45 yards running flat out in thick woods and only hit him once, first time in 20 years I needed more than 1 shot to drop a deer. Hate to say it, seasoned and having shot more deer this way than I can count I panic shot after the first round. My 30+ year hunting partner once said I am like ice when shooting, I'm glad he wasn't with me then, I was like silly putty. I followed my shots with the trees that got hit and realized I hit the deer with my last shot. I knew I missed the first time because I jerked the trigger and it went downhill from there. I had whats known as a BAD DAY!

I'll bet any LEO who has been in more than one firefight will tell you seldom do they mentally respond identically. A sudden ambush type assault will not give you the edge like an advanced notice situation and the sudden surge of adrenaline and uncertainty can throw you off your game. Ever wonder how you would react if you shot a perp and the perp didn't drop or stop his or her aggression, would you still be focused and cool under fire?

Try putting a round cardboard pizza dish in a tire and have it supported by a wheel on a wire and rolled to a safe shooting position and try hitting the thing. This is one way I honed this skill, also walking, turning, and shooting at deer targets at 75-100 yards offhand. I also have practiced the tire with a pistol just for fun at 25 yards, Lets just say before I got a hit, the amount of money spent on ammo could have bought a couple pizza's.

A running perp firing at you is a hard target to hit, and I think you will be glad you have more than 5 or 6 rounds. I think its a WISE man who carries too much ammo rather than chance it. Yes, I have carried just 6 shooters and semi's with less than 10 years past, but I've changed my thinking. Many perps are felons who worked out at the joint and bulked up, some in excess of 250 lbs and much of it muscle, bigger target, harder to stop in some cases, many perps work in pairs also.

I always carry a hi-cap now and a spare mag, even up till a couple years ago I carried 1 mag, but any seasoned competitive shooter knows they've had more than one off night at the range. I felt with my shooting skills I didn't need more, well 2 years ago if someone told me I would empty my rifle at a deer at 45 yards, even running and miss four out of five, I would have laughed. I guess my ego has taken a hit and I have taken a different approach to is there really such a thing as having too much insurance.
I guess its like the one armed deputy said in unforgiven when he was ridiculed for loading 2 guns and having only one arm to shoot with, he said I don't want to die for a lack of shooting back.
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Old May 5, 2010, 09:52 PM   #41
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To me, it boils down to the difference in use between a handgun and a long gun. A handgun is, in essence, a weapon of last resort, a true "get the hell off me" gun. Such a weapon is used when there is no other alternative: either there is no long gun available or things are too close and moving too quickly to deploy one. A handgun is never the preferable weapon to fight with.

The only time I rely on a handgun as my primary armament is when I'm not at home. When out and about, my duties and rights only extend to removing myself from a dangerous situation by whatever means I'm forced to use. I'm not going to purposely put myself in dangerous situations and if I find myself in one I'm going to make every attempt to get away. The only situations in which I'd be justified in using a handgun to defend myself are more than likely going to happen very fast and be at very short ranges. Under such circumstances, it is unlikely that I would be able to appreciate a high-capacity handgun even if I had one. Last time I looked it up, I believe that the average human could cover 21 feet in under 2 seconds. I don't know about you, but I simply cannot fire more than 5 or 6 accurate shots at a moving target in that amount of time. If my attacker is significantly more than 21 feet away, I'm going to try to get away from him rather than stay and have some sort of gun battle. I choose a 5 or 6 shot revolver as my CCW because it serves my most likely needs much better than a high-capacity semi-automatic.

Now, if I'm at home, circumstances are a bit different. If I'm forced to defend myself in my home it's because someone has invaded it. In a home invasion, you don't really have anywhere safe to retreat to so you might be forced to "repel boarders" under certain circumstances. In this case, I definitely want high-capacity but not in a handgun. Again I choose a revolver for a handgun because it will only be used when a long gun is not available or not deployable which, inside my home, means very close and very quickly. Given the opportunity, I will be reaching for a long gun and I keep both a .223 rifle with 20 rounds in it and a 12 gauge shotgun with 5 rounds in it loaded and accessible should the need for them arise.

Comparing law enforcement to civilian self-defense is really a misnomer. LEO's are, through the nature of their job, forced to use a handgun for purposes that I would only consider a long gun for. It is the LEO's duty to engage the BG and not "get away" no matter where he might encounter the BG at. Also, what is justifiable for a LEO to do with his handgun and what is justifiable for me to do with mine are two very different things.

It's really a personal thing. If, after careful consideration of your circumstances, you feel that you are better armed with a high capacity semi-automatic then by all means carry one. Do not, however, tell me that I'm under-armed or assume that I've not just as carefully considered my own circumstances just because I don't make the same choice as you.
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Old May 5, 2010, 11:25 PM   #42
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OK folks. Don't dare say you were not warned! Get your tactical helment, shield and vest ready and practice for concealed carry cause you just might need them. Don't forget the utility belt and flash bangs either.

On a more serious note, if you give this a lot of thought you just might end with a tinfoil hat. Keep it simple and real.
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Old May 5, 2010, 11:39 PM   #43
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I personally feel very comfortable with eight rounds of .45 ACP, typically 230 grain Speer Gold Dot JHP's, and two extra mags in case of extreme emergency. If I need more than 25 rounds and/or can't manage to find the time for a clip change after eight or nine rounds I'll just figure I've stumbled upon the apocalypse and am screwed anyway.
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Old May 6, 2010, 02:12 PM   #44
Bartholomew Roberts
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Here is how I look at it:

1. What are the odds of being in a gunfight? Very slim.
2. What are the odds I will needs more than ten rounds: Exceedingly slim.
3. What are the consequences if it does happen and I am not prepared for it? Death or serious injury are likely.
4. What is the cost of using a standard capacity magazine designed for more than 10 rounds? Well, really there aren't any until you start passing the 15-17rd mark (at least in 9mm) - at that point, they begin to affect concealability.
5. What is the benefit of 10 rounds or less in a magazine? Again, pretty much no benefit since a pistol grip big enough for me to grab will easily hold more than 10 rounds)

So, odds are very long; but consequences are very high. However, no real benefit to carrying less coupled with no real cost for carrying more means "take more than 10 rounds" to me. Naturally, if your analysis doesn't play out the same way, you may not reach the same conclusion for your use.
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Old May 6, 2010, 06:32 PM   #45
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I smell troll from this OP. I notice he hasn't posted anywhere else or asked any real gun questions. He just wasn't overt.

I didn't view the question as whether or not one should feel well-armed with an 8 round .45, which, obviously, you should, but rather for all us gun nuts to defend our "need" for standard capacity magazines vs the Soviet Republic of Kalifornia's law mandating low capacity magazines.
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Old May 6, 2010, 09:24 PM   #46
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Quote:
I smell troll from this OP
Thats what I felt as well when I had first read the OP. Felt like the OP was fishing. And I still feel it.
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Old May 9, 2010, 05:20 PM   #47
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Perhaps a troll or just busy, I've been there when it takes forever or forget about a thread I started. The debate has logic to both sides of the argument, but having been there, I now like to have a hi-cap whenever possible. Odds are you won't need them all, but if you do and run dry the odds are now vastly against defending you life or the life of others. Sometimes hi-caps just aren't concealable with the attire one is wearing so a mouse gun is the option, and a much better option than no gun at all.
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Old May 9, 2010, 05:35 PM   #48
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Most news articles do not give round counts:

Quote:
Early one morning, a Ventura, Calif., man dialed 9-1-1 after spotting two alleged prowlers in his backyard. Unfortunately for the homeowner—but perhaps more unfortunately for the prowlers—the suspects forced open a locked door and entered the home before police arrived. The homeowner, armed with a handgun, fired upon the suspects. They fled the home. Police apprehended one of the suspects in the driveway suffering from multiple gunshot wounds. The other suspect, also believed to be wounded, was still being sought at press time. (Associated Press, 01/26/10)
How many shots did he fire? The article implies a minimum of four, but it could have been a lot more, possibly one less. Since most legal shooters exercise great restraint and fire control there would naturally be less rounds shot in most HD/SD situations than in for example combat.

Here are other examples:

Quote:
Two or three men forced their way inside a home. The intruders were wearing ski masks and gloves, leaving little doubt as to their malicious intent. To protect his wife, cousin and 1-year-old daughter, the homeowner quickly retrieved his handgun and opened fire on the intruders, who returned fire. One intruder died after being shot multiple times. At least one accomplice fled the scene and is still being sought. The homeowner was slightly injured in the assault, but will recover. (Corpus Christi Caller-Times, Corpus Christi, TX, 12/31/09)
Quote:
Ten college students were enjoying a birthday party at an off-campus apartment when two armed men burst through the door. Police say the intruders separated the men from the women and demanded their cell phones and money. That's when one of the male students took action, drawing his gun from a backpack and shooting at the suspect guarding the men. That suspect fled the apartment. The student then hurried to the women, where he found the second suspect about to commit a rape. He yelled for the girls to get down and fired several shots at the suspect, who jumped out the window and died nearby. "Apparently, [the dead suspect's] intent was to rape and murder us all," said student Charles Bailey, "I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed." (WSB-TV, Atlanta, Ga., 05/04/09)
I would say as a general rule that any time you are facing more than one assailant and you are armed with a handgun you will likely need more than one magazine.

Quote:
I live in an Southern-California where there is some gang violence and and I'm looking at how practical a 1911 that holds 8 rounds is over a polymer gun that can hold somewhere between 13 and 19 rounds.
Since you can't get the 13-19 rounds you are looking for; go ahead and get the 1911 with a ten round magazine for back up. That gives you 18 rounds of .45 ACP. I would feel pretty comfortable with that.
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Last edited by MTT TL; May 9, 2010 at 05:41 PM.
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Old May 10, 2010, 12:24 AM   #49
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I went to a funeral yrs ago in Houston for a club owner who wished he would have carried a second magazine for his HI Power. Four armed men tried to rob him. He killed two, wounded a third before his magazine ran dry. The fourth guy walked over to where he was cornered and shot him with a 12ga.
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Old May 10, 2010, 03:22 PM   #50
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More is better or How much is too much?

My son-in-law just returned from some out of state training as a state law enforcement officer. He bought a new high capacity semi-auto pistol with three extra clips for his "off duty personal carry" as a result of that training. His trainers seemed to think it was a very good idea and so do I. Better to have and not need than to need and not have, words to LIVE by.
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