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Old May 4, 2010, 04:11 PM   #1
I922sParkCir
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A Real Life Example of "High" Capacity Magazines Being Needed.

Hi everybody, this is my first post.

Does anyone have any real life examples of "high" capacity (a capacity greater than 10), or a reload actually being needed in a civilian and non-law enforcement self-defense encounter?

I live in an Southern-California where there is some gang violence and and I'm looking at how practical a 1911 that holds 8 rounds is over a polymer gun that can hold somewhere between 13 and 19 rounds.

So, real life examples would be ideal. I've searched for news articles, and The Armed Citizen and couldn't find anything.

Thank you for you help.
-Jai
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:24 PM   #2
WW2
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California limits you to 10 rounds

1922sParkCir - California law limits you to a maximum capacity of 10 rounds so your choice is limited. Just get a good gun you can run properly and a spare magazine.

As for CCW permits, in Riverside county where I live, you can only get one if an active death threat is issued against you and you have a court restraining order. Then, it cannot be renewed if the Sheriff decides that the threat is no longer viable.

On the bright side, over 90% of self defense usages with guns require ZERO rounds! But you never know when you are in the 99th percentile and need 30 rounds!
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:34 PM   #3
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High capacity is far more important for bad shooters than good shooters.

Really though, even if such a situation were to arise anybody who trains even moderately can switch mags in seconds. I'm not much of a wheelgun shooter, but even with revolvers I've watched good shooters slap in another six rounds with a speed loader so fast that it's a blur.

A lot of people (myself included) prefer single stack magazine pistols because of the reduction in width and weight. They're just easier to carry and conceal, and I've got at least one (usually two) extra mags at my disposal.

I don't see any real-world advantage in a high capacity pistol. In the end though, it's the shooters choice.
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:34 PM   #4
I922sParkCir
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Legally you can own and posses a high capacity magazine.

CalGuns has a great write up here.
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:36 PM   #5
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Welcome to the limits of living in Southern California.


WWII, i am R-Co as well
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:38 PM   #6
Haifisch
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Confucius say...

Better to have extra rounds and not need them, than to need extra rounds and not have them.
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:42 PM   #7
Brian Pfleuger
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I've asked the same question several times in the past.

I know of no civilian, "on-the-street" examples of more than 10 rounds being fired.

Fact is, there are VERY few examples of more than 3 or 4 rounds being truly necessary.

The only example I know of wherein a civilian fired a large number of shots was a gun store owner in FL (IIRC) that defended his store from a "smash and run" robbery with a full-auto weapon.


Quote:
Confucius say...

Better to have extra rounds and not need them, than to need extra rounds and not have them.
Confucious say....

Proverb good way to justify personal choices.
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Old May 4, 2010, 04:46 PM   #8
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You can try...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

I couldn't tell you the why, what, or how about the incident but do I really need to ask you if you think the guy was happy to have more than just a handful of rounds available? Just look at the hardware the perps had!
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Old May 4, 2010, 05:14 PM   #9
EdInk
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I think that for a ccw weapon anything .380 or stronger with 5rd capacity (and a reload depending on the situation) would suffice.
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Old May 4, 2010, 05:37 PM   #10
Haifisch
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This isn't the 6th grade.

GEM


My apologies, I didnt know this was a no fun forum.

Last edited by Haifisch; May 4, 2010 at 06:29 PM.
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Old May 4, 2010, 05:45 PM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
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Here's a proverb - The novices have asked the sages about capacity many times, the sages squabble to no conclusion.

So OP - search on the topic and every bit of wisdom to be said has been said.

1. Most gun usages have no shots fired.
2. If they do, they might have only a few shots fired.
3. If you are not in 1 and 2, you might be in trouble.

OK, that's it. That's all there is.

I suggest the OP go search and read past threads. Then ponder on his or her conclusions or a new question from that reading. Then come back to share his or her journey with us.

Otherwise - how many shots in a dead horse?
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Old May 4, 2010, 06:08 PM   #12
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Ammo capacity is a comfort factor but ...

I don't recall ever seeing a story where someone in a shootout wished they had less capacity.

Larry
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Old May 4, 2010, 06:20 PM   #13
bamafan4life
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a Hammerd drunk person or somebody high on something might not no they have been shot and keep coming at you thats when you will need more capacity.
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Old May 4, 2010, 06:44 PM   #14
Deaf Smith
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Easy. Miami FBI shootout. In that case they didn't have the BBs to continue the fight.

And any time you here where a cop fired more than, say, 18 rounds, you know they pretty much winchestered their gun and had to reload.

Now the likehood is low, but there have been cases.
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Old May 4, 2010, 06:50 PM   #15
I922sParkCir
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The Miami Massacre is a good example, but it's law enforcement, and not entirely self-defense.
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Old May 4, 2010, 07:20 PM   #16
coldpointcrossing
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I say again...

You can try...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM

I couldn't tell you the why, what, or how about the incident but do I really need to ask you if you think the guy was happy to have more than just a handful of rounds available? Just look at the hardware the perps had!
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:18 PM   #17
ojibweindian
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Look here: http://ferfal.blogspot.com/

Plenty of examples, just need to dig around.
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:21 PM   #18
WW2
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Better look again...

1922sParkCir - unless you already have the higher capacity magazine and have had it since 1/1/2000 you are out of luck. Reread the link you sent from calguns.net.

Me, I have a Bersa Thunder .380 with 7 round capacity and CT laser grips. There are factory 9 round mags available it you want.

My remington 7615 has 10 rounds from an AR15 mag. Since it is a pump action, I don't need the tool button release that an AR requires in Calif. So I can quickly reload the 10 rounds of .223 remington or 5.56 Nato since the gun will shoot both.

My 870 holds 7+1 rounds of 00 buck. Between the three, my house is well defended.

However, when I step off my Temecula property, all the law allows me to carry is my 3" folder (and I have to be careful where I take that since it is not legal to carry in many places that the public or gov't people gather). The knife laws change from city to city and county to county.

Basically, in Riverside County California, if you are not an LEO you are expected to be unarmed. I wonder when they will outlaw self defense martial arts? The schools already ban self-defense. If you so much as block a punch thrown at you the schools will expel you. What are "We the Sheeple" supposed to do? Lay down and be dinner for the wolves? Not this sheepdog!
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:26 PM   #19
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I can think of a couple of stories, but I don't have links. There was in incident in Texas. If I remember correctly a guy was on his way to the range. Some guys attacked a police officer, he was incapacitated and the shooter fired several mags from his CZ-75 into their car to keep them at bay until police arrived.

I remember a story (I think Masaad Ayoob wrote it) about a jewelry store in Virginia in which the owners unloaded several Rossi 5 shot revolvers firing at the robbers. One took 3 hits to the chest to stop, the other had a shotgun, behind cover. While they did this without full capacity mags, they would have been better served with a semiauto and a spare mag or two.
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:38 PM   #20
I922sParkCir
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WW2, in large print a little down the page reads:
To repeat: Possession/use of a large-capacity magazine by an individual is not a crime, no matter how you acquired it.
Also, it lists:
Note that it is not prohibited to:
  • own a large-capacity magazine
  • possess a large-capacity magazine
  • use a large-capacity magazine, in whatever gun*
  • repair a legally possessed large-capacity magazine
    (and, necessarily, to acquire the parts to make the repair --
    remember it only makes sense to buy parts kits for existing
    legally-possessed large-capacity magazines)
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:44 PM   #21
I922sParkCir
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Quote:
I remember a story (I think Masaad Ayoob wrote it) about a jewelry store in Virginia in which the owners unloaded several Rossi 5 shot revolvers firing at the robbers. One took 3 hits to the chest to stop, the other had a shotgun, behind cover. While they did this without full capacity mags, they would have been better served with a semiauto and a spare mag or two.
Here's the article that wayneinFL mentions.

Last edited by I922sParkCir; May 4, 2010 at 09:35 PM.
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:48 PM   #22
Deaf Smith
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That would be Lance Thomas.

And yes, he emptied severel guns in THREE SHOOTOUTS.

He hid the guns all over his shop and when he shot one empty he would reach for the other.

So we wonder, what if he had in the first two shootouts 15 shot .45s. Maybe he would not have been shot himself (he was wounded more than once!)
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:55 PM   #23
Kmar40
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There are numerous examples of homeowners or innocents being attacked by multiple attackers. In those situations, you would need more than 10 rounds perhaps, some good training, and a lot of luck. Unfortunately, in most instances the good guys lose, never get to their weapon, or never get past the first or second attacker. LA riots, Katrina, and other mob violence is yet another real world example.

And just for the record, 11 rounds isn't 'high capacity". Twelve to nineteen rounds is standard capacity in many pistols. A ten round magazine is usually a low capacity magazine for a pistol with a double stack magazine.

Last edited by Kmar40; May 4, 2010 at 09:14 PM.
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Old May 4, 2010, 10:15 PM   #24
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My personal thoughts coming from a family with quite a few gang bangers... They usually only carry revolvers and small caliber autos unless in a car or on their way to or from "business" deals. My cousin only carried a .22 semi-auto but had a sawed off 20 gauge in the car. My other cousin usually had a .38 revolver with him and a knife, they always have knives... But this is of course just a couple examples from my experiences and as I said, USUALLY only carry small but they may have bigger elsewhere. Others who may have been in law enforcement may tell you otherwise but I don't see the problem with 8-10 rounds and a couple magazines. Keep in mind that I don't remember ever hearing about them practicing their reloading skills...
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Old May 5, 2010, 12:11 AM   #25
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http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

.."During that time, Harry Beckwith had fired 105 shots.

By 2 a.m. all surviving perpetrators had been arrested and were in custody. Six were at the jail and one at morgue."
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