The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

View Poll Results: Are you guilty or innocent of having an incident of "Hi-Capacity Syndrome"?
Guilty 23 35.38%
Innocent 42 64.62%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28, 2010, 02:16 PM   #1
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Hi-Capacity: Helpful or Harmful?

You should first vote as to whether or not you're guilty of what I'm going to coin "Hi-Cap Syndrome".

Here's the situation. You're out plinking with your friends. You've got a soda can sitting on a stand about 15 yards out. You've got it's number. You're fully locked and loaded with a Hi-Capacity (12+round) magazine, standing position, and you let your first shot loose.
It misses.
You let loose your second.
It misses.
3, 4, 5,
Miss, miss, miss

At this point you are getting frustrated at all of the misses and your buddies are nagging you about not keeping your gun in your purse next to your lipstick so often and that you should try shooting with at least ONE of your eyes open.

You crack a smile and let loose:
Bam Bam Bam Bam Bam... etc...

And the can goes flying somewhere in there.

Are we not all guilty of this at one time or another? Relying on the idea that we've got "plenty of rounds" and "one of them's go to hit" if you let them all fly. Kind of the "if you throw enough crap at the wall" mentality.
I'll admit I've done it at the range as well. Furthermore, I train rapid-fire drills and engaging several targets. But this idea brings to mind a big question...

Is that philosophy (more bullets = more chances) more harmful than helpful?

I believe just about every police shooting I've seen footage of ends with the officer emptying his magazine at an assailant. While I mean no disrespect to these officers, they are in a fight for their lives, I have to wonder if having so many round available has given them a false sense of security about their skills. I like to train self control and tactics, but I really don't know quite how I would react in a shooting scenario if I engaged a BG and he acted exactly like that can; if that can shot back at you.

I might very well open up on him as fast as I could. I'd like to say that I would maintain control... but I really don't know. I've never been shot at.
What I DO know is that when I'm shooting and I have to load every cartridge by hand into a bolt-action rifle- I tend to shoot more carefully. And I tend to be more accurate than if I have a 30 round magazine of .223 to help me along after I miss a couple of times.

My real question is, all things being equal, do you think that having a surplus of rounds available has a natural tendency to create a "less careful shooter"?
And really, I can think of a lot of consequences that would naturally follow that mode of thought.

I'm LordTio, And I have been guilty of this.
~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 02:21 PM   #2
cougar gt-e
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2009
Posts: 809
"It misses" ???

What's that?

cougar gt-e is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 02:41 PM   #3
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
With handguns, yes.

With rifles, no. That .308 or .223 bullet has too much power and authority behind it to let loose fast shots at 100-500 yards and not be completely accountable as to what that front sight is covering.

At sub-25 yard handgunning distance, I still intimately know my backstop and downrange area.

At 400 yards in the desert, that distinction gets blurry. Even with a great backstop consisting of a 150ft tall mesa bluff, 250 yards wide.

I've never taken a CQB rifle course and I imagine I might be tempted to squeeze the trigger faster in such a class. But the marksman in me still knows that pulling the trigger on a rifle is pointless unless the front sight is on the target.

With the handgun, my faith in the front sight is a bit less since my technique isn't quite up to snuff with my rifles, and the sight radius is so much shorter. So, the temptation to rip off rounds quickly is higher, with the resultant consequences of a wide shot are drastically less due to my proximity to the target and backstop.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 02:59 PM   #4
AcridSaint
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 407
Since the can isn't going to stop or seriously impede the bullet, I would say that it doesn't matter how many times you hit or miss. None of us picks up a gun for the first time and knows how to hit everything every time. That's why we practice and we have a safe backstop.

I have been guilty of missing and guilty of getting frustrated with a target. I can't recall a time that I simply unloaded at it in frustration, however.
AcridSaint is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 03:17 PM   #5
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
I only have a couple of firearms that I've purchased "hi-capacity" magazines for.

My Glock 17's... I have +2 extenders making their magazines "hi-capacity".

I've bought a couple 30 round extenders for my G21 magazines for my Kriss thereby making them "hi-capacity".

I think perhaps you have standard capacity and hi-capacity confused.

If a firearm was designed to hold 15 rounds like say a Beretta 92, the 15 round magazine isn't "hi-capacity". That's a standard capacity magazine. If you extend that capacity past 15 rounds, then you've got yourself a hi-capacity magazine.

The media is the one guilty of making the world think that anything over 10 rounds is "hi-capacity". That's simply not true.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 03:22 PM   #6
spacecoast
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Sunshine and Keystone States
Posts: 4,114
Sturm -

He defined what he meant by hi-cap, AFAIK he's allowed to do that. The post isn't about that definition, it's about how the reader reacts to a miss. I think you are nit-picking.
spacecoast is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 03:29 PM   #7
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,967
What is this miss you speak of?
markj is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 03:56 PM   #8
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
Quote:
He defined what he meant by hi-cap, AFAIK he's allowed to do that.
He's a stickler for vernacular, so I thought I would point this out. I'm allowed to do that I believe.

Quote:
The post isn't about that definition, it's about how the reader reacts to a miss. I think you are nit-picking.
Yes, I am. But I think I'm allowed to do that too.

It's all in good fun, I don't mean anything by it.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 04:26 PM   #9
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
I did try to operationally define the term Hi-Capacity as a magazine with around 12 or more rounds for this particular purpose, but I do appreciate the criticism. I realize that the term Hi-capacity does not apply to a magazine that holds as many rounds as the weapon was designed to hold. I was meaning to create an operational definition pertaining to magazines with "many rounds".

I've known several hunters in my time. They all use a variety of equipment to hunt different game. However, it seems that the individuals using the semi-auto weapons (semi-auto 12ga shotguns in particular) are the ones who use the most ammunition during the hunt with not much more to show for it.

I've got a good friend also who does Civil War re-enactments with his family and has been hunting several times with his father: using their muskets.

They do quite well.

From what research I've done, what I've seen, and stories I've heard told, firefights between individuals usually end when one or both parties exit the fight, or when one scores a single incapacitating shot to COM or the CNS. You are much more likely to make that one shot that ends the fight if you are engaging in careful, concentrated shooting which I believe a limited amount of ammunition available, naturally lends itself to.

I realize that "cover fire" or "suppressive fire" has it's place and that automatic weapons rule the military, but for my purposes as a civilian sheepdog, I believe that I would do much better to train myself to resist the urge to engage in firing rapidly at nearly all costs.

~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 04:38 PM   #10
aarondhgraham
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 1, 2009
Location: Stillwater, OKlahoma
Posts: 7,075
My rangemaster in the service called it,,,

Diarrhea of the trigger.

I'm guilty for sure,,,
I only own two semi-auto pistols,,,
Both are 10 shot .22 LR plinker type handguns.

I will go through more ammo with those than anything else,,,
No matter how hard I try to slow down and aim,,,
It's just so much pure fun to blast away.

That's the main reason,,,
My serious handguns are revolvers.
__________________
Caje: The coward dies a thousand times, the brave only once.
Kirby: That's about all it takes, ain't it?
Combat: "A Silent Cry"
Aarond is good,,, Aarond is wise,,, Always trust Aarond! (most of the time)
aarondhgraham is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 05:12 PM   #11
The Deuce
Member
 
Join Date: November 3, 2009
Posts: 89
I don't MISS and get frustrated.. I miss and keep trying..

if someone is going to NAG ON YOU for missing.. load the same gun up.. same number of rounds.. hand it to your buddy and say "OK.. YOUR TURN SALLY.. Hit the can !!"

Unless he is an expert marksmen.. I bet he misses and misses and misses.. and then get's the ahhhh hell UNLOAD philosophy you speak of.

I practice practice practice.. and At 20 yds I can pretty much SHOOT a can at least 70% of the time.. (if I had 10 rnds + 10 cans -- I'd hit at least 7)

As far as HI-CAP.. No such thing.. THE MORE THE MERRIER
The Deuce is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 05:27 PM   #12
qcpunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 14, 2009
Location: Farmsville, AZ
Posts: 305
I think I have done that one or two times with my .40s, but it's just too expensive for me to do that.

However, I most certainly do that with my Ruger MarkII, though that doesn't fit your definition of high capacity. Ever time I have that gun out, I will start and end a shooting session with 20 rounds (2 mags) down range in less than 30 seconds. It just makes me feel good for some reason. The rest of the time with the .22 or .40, I'm placing carefull shots, working on technique, serious shooting. But there is something about letting loose a bunch of .22LRs as fast as you can pull the trigger that just tickles me. Not to mention, even in rapid fire, the MarkII stays right on target, Love it!
__________________
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it." --Abraham Lincoln
qcpunk is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 05:29 PM   #13
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,329
Guilty, not as a SD practice, but at the range. Not out of frustration for not hitting the target, but just for S&Gs. Happiness is letting off the trigger and seeing 3 cases in the air
Generally, once I get my firearm "dialed in" I hit what I am aiming at. Not necessarily X ring every time, but certainly minute of beer can accuracy.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 06:01 PM   #14
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,775
I may be in the minority here... or maybe not?

When I'm having enjoyable shooting at either an indoor range (paper) or my outdoor range (you name it!) then I'm typically loading my mags with 5 rounds (if it's .45 or 10mm) or 10 rounds (if it's 9mm.)

I do that because it's easier to load the mags... I don't spend as much time wrecking my thumb and I've got a nice even number as I chew through my boxes of ammo -- 5 rounds or 10 rounds at a time.

My 10's hold 9/10 rounds, I shoot 5.
My .45's hold 7/8 rounds, I shoot 5.
My 9's hold 15/17+1, I shoot 10.

The only mags I load to capacity are in my Mark II, 10 rounds.

For carry and social use in the home, I'm full up, of course. And all mags that are put to work in a defensive role have all been thoroughly tested to capacity.

In my revolvers, I load 6 and shoot 6... but I make all my ammo boxes full with 48 rounds. Nice and equal!
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 07:32 PM   #15
OldLincoln
Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2010
Posts: 49
I don't do it (yet) with pistols or rifles, but used to be VERY bad with the shotgun hunting dove. I'd start out terrific then get sloppy almost never hitting the bird on the first shot. The only way to correct this was to load only 1 shell and not take a shot if I wasn't sure.

My pistol shooting also tends to get sloppy after a good start. I only shoot a hundred rounds now and practice presentation, stance, and grip before a triple tap.
OldLincoln is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 07:54 PM   #16
rickyrick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2010
Location: Mesquite Jungle Desert, West Texas, USA
Posts: 2,467
Guilty,
soda cans are the worst fun. try firing one shot then go look at it, sometimes they punch right through and the can dont move.

the best way to avoid spewing your mag out is to have a friend place a small wager or dare.

sometimes its great fun just to pump'em like a windex bottle.

just don't be 'negligent'(snicker) about it

sorry had to throw it in
__________________
Navin R. Johnson: "He hates these cans!!!! Stay away from the cans!!!!"
rickyrick is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 08:04 PM   #17
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
*Just as a clarification, I'm not really talking about pointless rapid firing here. I'm instead refering to a tendency to shoot at your target with a bit too much haste instead of taking the time to really work on the little things.

***
For anyone who's seen it, there is a scene in the movie Sin City directed by Robert Rodriguez that greatly illustrates the point I'm trying to make. Nearing the end, Hartigan (Bruce Willis) and Nancy Callahan (Jessica Alba) are being shot at by the "Yellow B******". The assailant has a Beretta 92 and plenty of ammo, as we clearly witness. Bruce has a 6-shot.
I believe the lines were...
"He's a decent shot. He's got skill. But he's in a rush; throwing bullets away like they were candy. He doesn't know how to take his time, aim straight, and look the Devil in the eye." -Then he takes one shot and nails him in the neck and ends the encounter.
***
I had a pretty positive experience last time I visited the firing range that pertains to this particular issue.

In order to gain entry to the pistol range, we have to go to the skeet range and pay for the session then show our receipts to a Range Officer.
While I was waiting for my receipt, I got to watch two different clubs shooting skeet. One group was using semi-auto shotguns. And the other was using Over-Under shotguns.

The semi-auto users were doing pretty well. However, whenever someone would miss their first shot, they would inevitably fire at least 2 more rounds in quick succession as the target continued it's arc. They very rarely missed a target this way, but it did happen.

I then began to pay attention to the Over-Under crowd. They were doing VERY WELL. Their targets were starting a bit further out and they very rarely missed their first shot. However, when they did miss, they each took about a second, took careful aim, and not one of their clay targets hit the ground in one piece in the much greater time I was observing them.

When I fire revolvers, I find that I tend to aim more carefully and pay more attention to the little things. This is not a marked difference by any means, but the little things that I have a tendency to pay even MORE attention to when I have limited ammo, tend to become BIG things when the chips are down.

Perhaps it's the iconography of the Hollywood imagery, or the want of great skill with an auto without the required training, or whatever... but I get the feeling that we've bred a generation that has quite a few "Sloppy Shooters" when they are given the ability to fire a surplus of ammunition. And I will readily admit that I've been guilty of being one of these a time or two.

I'm really trying very hard to work on it. It's best for everyone if we do I feel.

~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 08:05 PM   #18
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Quote:
just don't be 'negligent'(snicker) about it

sorry had to throw it in
AAAAhhhh, Ricky...

lol

~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 08:18 PM   #19
orionengnr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 9, 2004
Posts: 4,985
Nope, I don't own anything that holds a double-stack mag.
Most of my handguns are revolvers. Of the remainder, most of them are 1911s. What's left is two Kahrs and an LCP.

The "highest-capacity" pistol I own is a Ruger MkII.
orionengnr is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 08:26 PM   #20
Cool_Hand
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 2010
Posts: 373
I shoot revolvers and lever actions. I am innocent
Cool_Hand is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 08:56 PM   #21
LOUcifer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 5, 2010
Location: Tampa
Posts: 228
I've "sprayed and prayed"...LMAO!!!

Your honor guilty as charged

Although there is no where around here to set up cans like that...paper has paid the ultimate price
LOUcifer is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 09:22 PM   #22
Ichiro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2005
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 887
I shoot high-cap 9s, and I don't miss. I'm innocent.
Ichiro is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 10:25 PM   #23
Bamashooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 12, 2010
Posts: 1,709
well first off. when i go shoot its my way to get away and do what i love to do. also to test my handloads sometimes. most of the time i hit my target but if i dont i dont get bent out of shape. my dad used to give me 4-5 shells for my single shot 16ga. when i was a kid and let me go squirrel hunting. i was expected to bring home meat( kinda ) or the shells. i was taught patience shooting a long time ago. some times i rip off a 30 round mag just becouse i can. so i can say im usually pretty calm behind the trigger when i have to be.
Bamashooter is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 10:47 PM   #24
Cheapshooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,329
Quote:
*Just as a clarification, I'm not really talking about pointless rapid firing here. I'm instead refering to a tendency to shoot at your target with a bit too much haste instead of taking the time to really work on the little things.
That's an entirely different thing. If I am not "blastin'", I do think through every shot. Sometimes maybe too much.
__________________
Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!
Cheapshooter is offline  
Old April 28, 2010, 11:02 PM   #25
jgcoastie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,112
Sometimes, I'll have a day at the range where I just can't make the magic happen at 25yds with my defensive handguns... So I switch to close range drills... Run through a few magazines at close range (5ft-20ft) in slow mode and quick mode to work on target acquisition and elimination. After a while, I get bored shooting handguns, so I'll switch up and shoot skeet for a bit. Then I'll break out my .22lr match rifles (Buckmark Target and 10/22) and make the spent shotgun shells dance at 25-50yds. Then I might try 25yd handgun shooting again, or I might not...

One day I might own a S&W 41, a match-grade target 1911, or some fancy race gun that I will really wring out at the 25yd line, but for the time being I don't put much stock in being able to hit soda cans at 25yds... I am much more concerned with putting two rounds into an 8" target at 10ft as fast as I am able, while moving towards "cover". I don't own target handguns, they are defensive handguns and are primarily used for defensive (i.e. realistic) practice.
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.
jgcoastie is offline  
Reply

Tags
glock , hi-cap mags , pistol , practice , semi auto

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14321 seconds with 8 queries