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Old April 29, 2010, 09:41 AM   #1
woad_yurt
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A CCW non-incident....

Something I posted on another forum that may be of interest here, too. An ex-girlfriend told me about this today:

She had to pick up her vehicle from a radiator shop which was maybe 3/4 mile from her home. Since it was a beautiful day, she walked. While walking, some guy pulls up in his car and starts asking her if she'd like "to earn some extra money." She told him to buzz off, which he did. Then, he came back again and started pacing her with the car, still soliciting. She told me that she had her little .32S&W H&R topbreak hammerless with her and that it was in hand in her pocket.* She said that the idiot finally left for good but that she felt safe with a gun in hand. She knows the gun's limitations and said that, if it got really bad, she'd have waited until he was very much "in range." I know her; she would've used it if she had to.

Anyway, she called and told me about it because it was I who prodded her into getting a carry permit. She had never even shot a gun until she met me. I know the story may be a bit anticlimactic as nothing happened but it does show how stuff can happen anytime and anywhere. It was around 11 AM on a sunny day in a nice, quiet neighborhood, right on the sidewalk in front of someone's house.

* I know it's no cannon and I know that there are better alternatives but it's small, simple, reliable and, most importantly, she's comfortable and confident with it. Please folks, no "useless popgun" comments, ok?
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:51 AM   #2
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Something that didn't happen shows that something could happen anywhere at any time?

That's interesting logic.


I had an order for a pizza last night that I thought might have been a prank call. Turned out not to be. Just goes to show you that a prank call can happen at any time.
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:59 AM   #3
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I worry about my wife whenever she's out and about without me. The man who was stalking your girl could easily have been (and may have been) a violent criminal. I'm glad it worked out.
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:59 AM   #4
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Good to hear about those “non-incidents”. Good for her and good for you. Likely, her attitude, being armed, let him know she had a better gun.

I wouldn’t like getting shot with a .32, or even a .22.

Question: If she packs, why is she an “ex”?
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:06 AM   #5
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What is that, "something", that, "didn't happened", that you are talking about peetza ?

It seems to me that anything can happen anytime, anywhere. I suspect the girl felt much more comfortable having her hand on the little revolver, than had she not had it. I can understand that. I'm glad she did not feel the need to pull it.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:06 AM   #6
woad_yurt
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Quote:
Something that didn't happen shows that something could happen anywhere at any time?

That's interesting logic.

Peetzakiller:
It's not logic at all. When one infers an unknown from something that is known, it's called extrapolation.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:07 AM   #7
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Quote:
Please folks, no "useless popgun" comments, ok?
Nothing that goes BANG is useless. People have been getting killed by much less than that for years.

Let's get into the "situational awareness" aspect of it. She did good to recognize a possible threat and be ready to react to it. She would have done better (while she had her hand on her gun) to stop in her tracks, back away from the car with her empty hand raised in the universal "stop" gesture, and begin screaming at the top of her lungs, "911! Stalker! Rape! Stop following me!" and other "catchwords" that make people look.

All's well that ends well. The best gunfight is one that never happens.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:18 AM   #8
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My sister lives by herself in the city and I have a little .32 top break that I am trying to encourage her to carry, maybe I'll forward the story on to her as a little extra incentive.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:23 AM   #9
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hook686
What is that, "something", that, "didn't happened", that you are talking about peetza ?

It seems to me that anything can happen anytime, anywhere. I suspect the girl felt much more comfortable having her hand on the little revolver, than had she not had it. I can understand that. I'm glad she did not feel the need to pull it.
Of course anything can happen at any time. The point is that something NOT happening is certainly not a demonstration of that concept.

It's like saying that because an asteroid didn't strike earth yesterday, it proves that an asteroid could strike anywhere at any time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by woad_yurt
Peetzakiller:
It's not logic at all. When one infers an unknown from something that is known, it's called extrapolation.
Ok, it's an interesting (and illogical) extrapolation.

A car passed me today, it just goes to show that accidents can happen anywhere, any time.

I had heart burn this morning, it just goes to show that I could have a heart attack anywhere at anytime.



I'm glad nothing happened. I'm glad the girl carries a gun, because something could happen anywhere at anytime.... but something didn't happen, and something not happening is not "proof", and does not "show" that something could happen.
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Old April 29, 2010, 11:17 AM   #10
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Glad it worked out for her. Those old .32S&W top-breaks are nice for CC even though they're not quite as potent. The ones that are especially good for that purpose are the concealed/internal hammer ones.

Quote:
woad_yurt
A CCW non-incident...
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Old April 29, 2010, 01:27 PM   #11
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There's a fair chance the gun's presence DID help. It helped her mindset - she didn't act like prey, that got picked up on, she got left alone.

To a gun-grabber of the Sarah Brady persuasion this sort of thing doesn't happen.

Except...it does. Quite a bit in fact.
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Old April 29, 2010, 02:05 PM   #12
woad_yurt
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Quote:
A car passed me today, it just goes to show that accidents can happen anywhere, any time.
Unreal. :barf:
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Old April 29, 2010, 03:43 PM   #13
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Maybe this is it, the actual bad guy count is like 1/2 of 1% of the total population. Chances of actually meeting up with a person that will do you harm no matter if you comply or not is very slim. This is what I live by, I dont expect every man, woman, or child to want my death. I treat everyone like a friend I havent seen in a long time. I am saying here that there seems to be a lot of fear in a lot of these posts. The imagination of a supposed threat is higher if that is all you think about. Not everyone is out to get ya.

I understand peetza logic there. life is fun, should be lived not in a fearful way shunning everyone you may meet on the streets.
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Old April 29, 2010, 03:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Of course anything can happen at any time. The point is that something NOT happening is certainly not a demonstration of that concept.

It's like saying that because an asteroid didn't strike earth yesterday, it proves that an asteroid could strike anywhere at any time.
The point is that she had a gun and was relatively safe (and felt relatively safe) because of that. She didn't have to feel like a terrified and helpless victim when this guy came back. She didn't have to run screaming for help, or rely on 911 in hopes that a cop may or may not show up in time if this incident continued to escalate.

We don't know what the intent was - he may have been trolling for hookers, or he may have been a rapist trolling for victims. If the latter, her demeanor (because she knew she had a defense) may very well have affected the guys decision to leave this woman alone.
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Old April 29, 2010, 04:10 PM   #15
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well stated, markj.

And woad_yurt... hate to burst some kind of bubble you've got going on, but cars pass me every day.
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Old April 29, 2010, 04:19 PM   #16
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Oh boy, this is getting off onto a tangent, but I just can't resist:

Quote:
Ok, it's an interesting (and illogical) extrapolation.

A car passed me today, it just goes to show that accidents can happen anywhere, any time.
If you're going to draw on analogies, you shouldn't use that strawman. One more true to the actual event would be:

"A car came really close to hitting me today, but swerved at the last second. Just goes to show that accidents can happen anywhere, any time."

In the actual event, a guy didn't just drive by the lady. He followed her and asked her if she wanted to make a little extra money. How much closer to an actual abduction (and, God forbid, whatever would have ensued after that) would the event have had to be for you to recognize that she came close to being involved in something very bad?

Just my take on it.

But I understand your point that people shouldn't go around all paranoid all the time. I agree. This event wasn't paranoia, it was a close call.

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Old April 29, 2010, 04:36 PM   #17
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogodon
If you're going to draw on analogies, you shouldn't use that strawman. One more true to the actual event would be:

"A car came really close to hitting me today, but swerved at the last second. Just goes to show that accidents can happen anywhere, any time."
No, because in your analogy SOMETHING definitively dangerous actually HAPPENED.

In the real situation, NOTHING dangerous happened. The guy could have been anything from a pervert who gets his jollies talking to women he doesn't know to a kidnapper and serial killer to simply mentally deficient and overly friendly.

Wierd? Yes. Dangerous? No one can know.

Just like my analogy of a car driving by being an example of how an accident could happen at any time. Nothing happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogo don
How much closer to an actual abduction (and, God forbid, whatever would have ensued after that) would the event have had to be for you to recognize that she came close to being involved in something very bad?
How much closer? Close enough to say that SOMETHING demonstrably threatening or dangerous was actually present. This situation was odd, uncomfortable, weird, annoying, strange, scary, unpredictable.... lots of things.

What it was NOT is some sort of demonstration that "something can happen anytime", unless two cars passing each other on the highway is a demonstration that accidents can happen any time.

The only thing that this incident is a demonstration of is that weird people who you don't know may try to talk to you about weird things when you're in public places. Was anyone ever really in doubt of that?
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Old April 29, 2010, 05:05 PM   #18
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As far as the "Non-incidents" go, I personally believe it is useful to examine such situations.

The way I see it, in the situation as explained by the OP, there was a foul plot afoot and the "defender" was unsettled by the interactions with the guy in the car. That prompted her to be on high alert, and to pay attention to everything going on around her - situational awareness. It sounds as if she were prepared to defend herself if necessary, without jumping the gun.

I think these types of situation certainly require ponderance. As CWPinSC states, the best gun fight is the one that doesn't happen. I may be wrong, but I believe that none of us here want to find ourselves in a situation where the guns actually go bang. It just isn't conducive to living a long life. Whereas recognizing that a situation is heading in the wrong direction, and defusing the situation or removing yourself from the situation leads to a longer life expectancy. These situations do help shed light on what can happen, how they begin, and how to deal with the situation.
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Old April 29, 2010, 05:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
There's a fair chance the gun's presence DID help. It helped her mindset - she didn't act like prey, that got picked up on, she got left alone.
True, but then again that mind set was exactly what was going to let the stranger get overly close to her as a threat.

Quote:
She told me that she had her little .32S&W H&R topbreak hammerless with her and that it was in hand in her pocket.* She said that the idiot finally left for good but that she felt safe with a gun in hand. She knows the gun's limitations and said that, if it got really bad, she'd have waited until he was very much "in range."
"In range" has to be well beyond 25 yards for the gun, right and the guy trying to chat her up was likely no more than 5-10 yards away in order to be having the conversation.

So while she had confidence, that confidence was going to let a potential threat get very close to her. And there we see the error of being overly confident. She isn't the only one to exhibit this trait. There are lots of threads here that allude to it.
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Old April 29, 2010, 06:44 PM   #20
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She seriously needs to gun-up...
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Old April 29, 2010, 07:38 PM   #21
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I put quotation marks around "in range" for a reason. That's her way of saying that it wasn't gun time yet. She's knows that she may not claim self-defense successfully if she shoots someone from too far a distance. She also knows when she can hit her target. She was talking about legal, last resort range, not how far that gun can shoot and still do damage. I think she did right.

And yes, I think she'd be better off with a .38 snubby but it's not my call.
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:09 PM   #22
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Quote:
I put quotation marks around "in range" for a reason. That's her way of saying that it wasn't gun time yet. She's knows that she may not claim self-defense successfully if she shoots someone from too far a distance. She also knows when she can hit her target. She was talking about legal, last resort range, not how far that gun can shoot and still do damage. I think she did right.
She absolutely did the right thing. I know there's no exact number of feet someone has to be within, but if you shoot someone that's more than lets say 15-20 feet away the question will always be asked in court, "why didn't you try to run?"
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
It's like saying that because an asteroid didn't strike earth yesterday, it proves that an asteroid could strike anywhere at any time.
That's a deliberate misconstruction, Pete. The proper analogy would be something like "An asteroid, which previously passed within 1 million miles of earth in 2001, returned today and passed within only 650,000 miles."

Again... an asteroid didn't strike the earth, but it shows that one could possibly come in contact due to its previously known behavior.

In this case, some wierdo asks a girl from inside his car if she'd like to make "a little extra money". Gee...what could he be implying? Is he offering her a job at the car wash? Is he simply a pornographer looking for "new girls"? Or something more nefarious? We simply don't know.

But the real clue is his return to follow her and try to make closer contact. If he was legit, he'd not waste his time on her. My guess is that he was stalking her as a potential victim. Many of the sex-crimes that occur around here happen between 9AM and Noon. That's when most folks are at work, many neighborhoods almost void of people who'd hear a cry for help. Most often the perp is a swing-shift worker (7-12) or night-worker (11-7). They seem to taper off greatly after 12-Noon so they have time to mend any injuries, dispose of evidence and/or get a few hours of sleep before going to work.

So, from my perspective, this does show that women can be targeted as prey at any time by perverts and rapists. It also shows the benefit of just having a gun available -- her attitude wasn't one of fear, but of firm resistance. That was sufficient to push him off on some other unsuspeting person.
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:52 PM   #24
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No, you're not right.

In almost every group there is that guy who is ready to tell you that you’re not really correct in what you said.

“This is a beautiful day! Just look at that blue sky.”
“Well, the sky isn’t really blue. Look over there, notice how is tends toward gray? And not only that... “

“It sure is cold out here.”
“No, it isn’t that cold. What’s making you feel cold is the wind chill factor. That’s when...”

In the OP the guy approached her and asked a propositioning question.
In prostitute sting operations this is enough, or with a couple more remarks, enough to get him arrested. Usually it takes a mention of money and that was done as soon as he spoke.

The second time he paced her with his car after being told to leave her alone.
If anyone doesn’t see potential danger there then I don’t know what to say to them. That’s stalking and can get a man in trouble quick.

As far as “in range” that could mean if he got out of the car and walked toward her. I accept that she would know when it’s time to pull the gun and when it’s time to fire it.

In the time it would take him to get out of the car she could pull the gun from her pocket.
One step toward her and she could fire.
There is not a prosecutor in this country who could fault her and keep his job.

This was not truly a non-incident. The OP told of a potential danger that occurred and how the potential victim handled it. Good post!!
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Old April 29, 2010, 09:06 PM   #25
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I've got to close this if only for my own sanity.

It actually started out ok - a report on why a CCW with any gun can be a good thing. Then the logic started getting a little difficult to understand - and that was somewhere around post #2.

It's not at all clear why the initial post and report had to be dissected so thoroughly (and with so little attendant logic in the analogies). At any rate, though there were some glimmers of hope in the follow-on posts (thanks Jim and several others), it never really got to the point where leaving it open was more favorable than closing it.
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