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Old April 27, 2010, 06:48 PM   #1
DanThaMan1776
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Excellent Information for Defensive Carriers and Home Defenders

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20B...a%20morgue.htm

I just read that article and most of the responses to it. I must say, the credibility of averaging 8.2 body inspections a day, 365 days a year, for years on end is impressive. He objectively presents what he sees every day in a medium which is far more reliable than ballistic gelatin (human flesh and bone) and tells it how he sees it.

I gotta say, my defense gun right now is a Glock 17. But i'm seriously re-thinking it and am now considering either a .40 or .45.

I think anyone can benefit from reading this and I would love to discuss the principles he presents with TFL members

So please, comment away...
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Old April 27, 2010, 07:11 PM   #2
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Good read. Makes me thankful I keep a 12ga, but sad that I didn't go for the .357 and am stuck with the .38

Thanks.
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Old April 27, 2010, 07:23 PM   #3
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Very interesting & informative article. Thanks for posting it. My 1st form of HD is a 12 gauge loaded with #6 & 00 buck. My backup to the 12 gauge is my .357 Ruger Security Six, but I have it loaded with .38 HP's. I believe that after reading this article I will reload it with .357's.
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Old April 27, 2010, 07:54 PM   #4
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I'm glad you both can reflect on it.. and yes Triplebike I would use hot 357 loads for defense and practice with 38s. My Dad always loaded his S&W with 38s until he read up on the glorious power of the 357. I'm not sure if you have a lead cast, but this article might interest you:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu104.htm
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Old April 27, 2010, 08:31 PM   #5
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I'm still confident in the .38 for my HD. I have it loaded with some Honady critical defense, not just some target rounds. That being said, I do wish I had the .357.

Then again, it seems many people tend to load with .38s to reduce the muzzle flash from the .357 at night.

A lot of discussions like these seem to always have the same points and conclusions. I like to think about it as this: the police have used .38s, 9mm and .40 with success. I'm sure at some point the .32 was also successful. Better things are available and better things come along, but I disagree in out rightly rejecting some calibers--as the author seems to have done with the 9mm.
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Old April 28, 2010, 10:00 AM   #6
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Excellent Information for Defensive Carriers and Home Defenders

Many JHP .357 rounds will blind you at night. Back in the day when I had to carry one I came up with a 158 Keith style lead, loaded fairly hot, much better at night. That being said, bigger is better and any of the .40+ caliber autos are not only more controllable, the muzzle flash is a dull orange on most of them. Has anyone thought of keeping electronic hearing protectors near their gun? 12ga in the house will be loud, .357 will be loud, maybe painful, the electronic ear protection will protect your hearing plus you can turn up the volume and hear MUCH better for noises that should not be there.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:08 AM   #7
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Sgt45 you bring up a great point. I actually have considered using electronic ear protectors, because the painful BANG of my handgun (even a 9mm loaded with +p+) will disorient anyone who isn't accustomed to noises like that (almost everyone). I have never fired any gun indoors without hearing protection, and to be honest i'm scared that if I ever have to for real It might make me hesitate or throw off my follow up shot. Plus, the BG wont have hearing protection so It will be a win-lose.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:14 AM   #8
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I'll continue to carry my .380 and 9mm's.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:19 AM   #9
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Hoytinak-- I still would never consider myself under-gunned with a 9mm on my waist, I just would feel more comfortable with a .45 instead. The only vice to the .45 is the capacity limitation. You either have to have a monster hand or be comfortable with 8 rounds.

Could you please provide an argument in favor of the smaller calibers that is pertinent to the article?
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:22 AM   #10
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Oh boy...this one is going to be interesting...I'm grabbing some popcorn.

As far as my comments...it really depends on the type of ammo being used. I wonder how many of these bodies were shot with law enforcement grade bullets. It makes a big difference...a BG is going to get whatever ammo he can get. I use Ranger Ts in my 9mm and I feel fine.

Only one consistent conclusion can be made in all this...all handguns are less than desireable when your life is on the line. A shotgun with 00 buck is much better...I'm no medical examiner, but that seems to be pretty obvious.

Still an interesting read.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:29 AM   #11
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Nothing really new here. I'm still going to carry my 9mm and my .380acp as well. For HD I keep a .45acp and a 12g so I suppose I am covered according to this extraordinarily long article.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:38 AM   #12
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Mathman you are right on point... he mentions later that the BGs don't read ballistics articles and don't consider bullet choice as something of importance. He says that what he finds are the basic, cheap, off the shelf ammo. However, he says that sometimes the gangsters will modify the bullets by adding mercury in the hollow cavity (makes it act like ball) or score the tip of ball ammo to make it fragment (which he says works surprisingly well).
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:39 AM   #13
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And the very detailed perspective of someone who analyzes shot humans instead of shot ballistic gelatin is actually new to me... i can't speak for you, electrichellfire.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:43 AM   #14
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I just prefer a 9mm over anything else. The lighter recoil allows to me to shoot it better so I can place my shots better, can get quicker followup shots if needed, plus it's cheaper for me to practice since I don't reload. There's no such thing as a magic bullet, practice with what you got. I'm of the school that shot placement is king. It doesn't matter what you're carrying if you can't hit with it.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
I'm talking mainly about the .40 and .45 here, but a few words about the 9mm and .380 are in order. Since the weight of the bullet is a major factor in reaching the vital organs, why penalize yourself with 125 grains of 9mm when you can have 230 grains of .45?
That's how I feel. I'm not against the 9mm but we all must be able to admit that there is less to go wrong with a 45 than with a 9mm or 380so my choice seems clear.
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Old April 28, 2010, 11:58 AM   #16
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Right on Hoytinak, I'm in the same school as you (shot placement is king), and I too believe that if I could place a .22 lr round from a revolver in an assailants eye every single time then I would carry that. Now I can't do that with any round, but I sure would be able to get several shots in a 3 or 4 inch ring at the center of the chest. But like the guy says, he's seen 9mm rounds mushroom and STOP against the sternum. Not only that, but in 90 percent of cases the BG is going to be moving or angled so the round doesn't get a square hit and like he says, the 9mm is far more prone to glance off bone whereas a .45 will crush it.

He has seen many cases of a 9mm hitting the femoral artery and the femur. The femoral artery was the cause of death, but that took several minutes, in which time the BG returned fire because the round bounced off the femur. A .45, he says, will simple break the femur and cause the BG to hit pavement and put him out of the fight.
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Old April 28, 2010, 12:17 PM   #17
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Unfortunately, I seem to recall that the occupation, credentials, observations, and claims of the poster (at the linked-to site) were seriously debunked about a year or two ago...on this forum and several others.

Ultimately, just a nicely written opinion piece about calibers, but not any more authoritative than many of the daily discussions you read here on TFL.

Good food for thought, but take the Fulton County "Medical Examiner's Office" recommendations with a grain of salt. The last time that many people died in Atlanta (and with such frequency), the Yankees were rolling through Kennesaw...
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Old April 28, 2010, 12:27 PM   #18
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Gansta modified bullets aren't the same as Law Enforcement grade ammunition.
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Old April 28, 2010, 12:46 PM   #19
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if you necked down a 50 AE to a 22 or 25 caliber and sent it out a 4" barrel, what kind of velocity might one get? Maybe out of sabots?

One thing I don't get in these arguments is the constant talk about one shot stoppers. I see where it comes in because you can miss and probably will, but who practices single shots for SD? Who plans on shooting once, pausing to evaluate then shooting again? I can pretty much guarantee a BG will have 2-4 bullets in him before my brain even registers a hit(depending on misses). All the SD videos I have seen at least the initial shots are fired in SUPER fast succession. Usually emptying a mag almost instantly. If no one is hit in this initial exchange then usually at least one party has fled the scene. If both happen to be hunkered down behind cover, which seems to be rare, then the effectiveness of single shots comes in to play.

It seems to me that the overriding failure in most peoples CCW/SD plan is practicing so they can make hits in that initial exchange. I know practicing this is VERY difficult as almost no range allows movement even between shots.
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Old April 28, 2010, 01:23 PM   #20
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Just making the point that just because its on the internet doesn't necessarily make it gospel. While many might argue the finer points, and I am sure they will, I think there is little doubt that the larger rounds are probably more effective. Not a new article, not a new concept.
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Old April 28, 2010, 02:08 PM   #21
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I can name three things, that if combined are more important then bullet size,

TRAINING, PRACTICE, AND FUNDAMENTALS
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Old April 28, 2010, 03:12 PM   #22
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That guy likes to write. I don't believe he knows anything.
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Old April 28, 2010, 03:56 PM   #23
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That was interesting reading, but I still prefer a high-cap 9mm with top-end defensive cartridges. You shoot until the threat is stopped, whether that requires one, two, eight, or 17 shots.
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Old April 28, 2010, 04:37 PM   #24
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Interesting read, most of which I agree with. My preferred carry is .45 acp Gold Dots. Depending upon dress, etc., however, I will carry a smaller caliber including .380.

The one question I would have asked the author is whether he had seen (or could tell) differences in types of hollow points, not brands, but bonded versus non-bonded. I'm betting a lot of the poorer performing 9mm hollow points he mentions is non-bonded.

One other thing, he really likes "big and slow" like .45 or .40 but then later goes into the importance of energy. Energy is more effected by velocity than mass since the the formula is E=1/2 of mass times velocity squared. Formula for Momentum is mass times velocity. It seems to me that momentum is more important than energy for penetration.
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Old April 28, 2010, 05:04 PM   #25
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I carry 38 special +p and a 357 in the cubby console but cannot downplay the 9mm which I considered a wimp round until I saw some pretty awesome results of it against a pine log.

I have a semi but some jams convinced me that it takes only one malfunction to make me go home to a gate which is Pearly instead of white.

I found what I consider a contradiction is one of his statements:
As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table.

If the 9mm and the 380 are so weak, why are these guys ending up in the morgue, and also the majority? If the 9mm or 380 took multiple rounds to kill and the BG was still able to return fire with a more lethal weapon, then shouldn’t there one corpse with a 357 hole in him for every corpse with fifteen 9mm’s?

I’ll keep my 38 and 357 but that doesn’t mean I’ll not respect the 9 and 380.
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