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Old April 29, 2010, 12:08 PM   #26
leetosaurus
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Jeez that was close. It was right in his face for a good couple of seconds! Glad he's Okay.
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Old April 29, 2010, 01:36 PM   #27
cracked91
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As far as tactics goes, Kmar hit it right on the head.

Another thing that could have saved him would have been to watch the guys hands. The hands are what kill, not the eyes.
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Old April 29, 2010, 02:53 PM   #28
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I wonder what caliber the officer's handgun was. To make a kill shot from behind the fleeing truck through glass, etc. is amazing to me.
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Old April 29, 2010, 05:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
I wonder what caliber the officer's handgun was. To make a kill shot from behind the fleeing truck through glass, etc. is amazing to me.
It really should not be that amazing if you think about it. The fleeing vehicle never got moving that fast. It was moving away in essentially a straight line away from the officer. It isn't as if the officer needed to lead his target in order for the target and bullet to arrive at the same point in space to produce a hit, as would be the case if the target was moving across his path at some distance. Instead, he had a target that was slowly getting smaller with distance, but not jinking about or anything else difficult. As you saw, most of the glass went away very quickly and the officer pumped a lot of rounds into the vehicle very quickly. So glass deflection through tempered glass really wasn't going to be much of an issue if any. While the one shot was a "kill shot" as you note, keep in mind that 13 of the shots didn't even hit the suspect.
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Old April 29, 2010, 06:03 PM   #30
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First off, congrats to officer Jessop for his quick thinking and fast response to the situation. He is without blame or guilt in the incident as the video clearly shows.

Second, thank your favorite diety for drunken, incompetent, and stupid people like Davis. Had he not been drunk and and stupid, he might have actually succeeded in firing that hand cannon.

Third, Davis was a convicted felon and was still able to obtain a firearm. this, along with the thousands of other felons who have obtained firearms is clear evidence that all the forms, bureaucratic red-tape and delays required by numerous "gun laws" aren't worth spit.

Re: Coroner's inquest - The investigating agency apparently did a thorough job. Not only do they need to show that lethal force was justified, but they also need to show that (a)the contact was legally justified, (b)the officer followed proper procedure during the stop and (c) anything non-obvious that the officer knew about the subject or situation. Other facts - like the officer's use of approved ammo types, his firearms qualification and perhaps any prior complaints on his use of force may be relevant (in some cases). That's what takes 5 hours to review.

Jessop's Glock 22 is a .40 S&W pistol. Its performance against automotive sheet metal is generally good. It is likely that the fatal round went through the large window opening after the glass shattered. Unencumbered by metal, it could easly penetrate two seatbacks to strike Davis.

Had Davis been less drunk and more aggressive in his intent to kill Jessop, he might have succeeded. The .41 Magnum's penetration against automotive bodies is excellent (quite often penetrating both doors easily). Jessop's car doors would become concealment, not cover.

S&W .41 Magnums - Model 57's and Model 58's (fixed sights)

Re: Tactics -- Besides Kmar's comments, I'll add that we were taught to make the initial approach to the B-pillar and assess the situation. That includes a visual look at the occupants, their hands and the areas around their thighs. Plus the attitude of the driver and occupants. Once you're satisfied with the situation you move a step forward to see the front seat area better.

However, if you get "bad vibes" or suspect that the driver is going to get hostile you tell him to wait and back off carefully to radio for back-up. Unfortunately, incidents often unfold - like this one did - with little warning that the driver is going to go Bozo on you.

For the most part, an officer's "escape" route from the kill-zone is to move to the vehicle's rear... behind the line of the B-Pillar (making it difficult for the driver to bring his weapon to bear and/or aim) and staying away from the "crush-zone" between the vehicles.

Officer Safety Tip: Before leaving the car, hang the radio mic out the window. One of our local officers in the early 80's was wounded on a car stop. But a 9mm round hit his HT radio too. He dragged himself to his car and managed to get the door open, but couldn't reach the microphone. Fortunately a citizen came to his aid and he survived.

Note that Jessop thought he fired 7-8 rounds when he nearly emptied the magazine. This is a typical stress-related problem. Your focus is on stopping the threat, surviving and getting help on the way. These are far more important than counting your own shots.

By the way... was anyone else astounded by the sound of that .41 Mag going off? I'm surprised Jessop isn't deaf in one ear now.
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Old April 29, 2010, 08:20 PM   #31
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Good post Bill.

Quote:
Another thing that could have saved him would have been to watch the guys hands. The hands are what kill, not the eyes.
Yeah, hands, not the face... not your radio (he messed with his)... and not the drivers license. Of course, you know he was thinking "just another DUI" and was probably looking at the eyes and smelling the breath.

That being said, I'm sure most of officers have done the same thing, probably hundreds or thousands of times.

Quote:
I wonder what caliber the officer's handgun was. To make a kill shot from behind the fleeing truck through glass, etc. is amazing to me.
It shouldn't really surprise you much. Sheetmetal and glass can be penetrated by almost any round.

There is a video out there somewhere showing some penetration tests of cars. Even rounds that pass through the front end (but miss the engine block) will likely penetrate the cab completely and often exit the sheetmetal of the trunk. There are exceptions, certain reinforced pieces of the subframe or whatever you call those thicker areas of the unibody.

Bottom line: Cars are concealment, not cover.

That being said, many people, even trained personnel don't necessarily know that. I've seen this demonstrated in simunition training. The bad guy will jump in a car and the officers will often try to move to a position to get a shot through the side glass or whatever, even though their handguns would fairly easily penetrate the body.
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Old April 29, 2010, 10:57 PM   #32
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Yeah, any round may penetrate the sheet metal, but instict dictates humans think in terms of what can stop their bodies and sight, that means even a BG will try to shoot around the object, not through it.

How much have you had to drink? Plenty! How much is plenty? Huh? Click....Bang! Shiit! Good job Officer, that guy needed to dead pronto! Seriously, I don't think any july anywhere in the US would need any real explanation after watching that video. Forget about Officer Jessop, Joe citizen would get acquitted for that killing too. Firing into the back of a seemingly freeing car is pure instinctive human reflex. I mean the guy already attempted to shoot the officer, totally unprovoked? What more does anyone need to see to understand this? I wouldn't care if he fired 28 times let alone the 14 he did, this is an open and shut case. Thank God the perp missed! Exactly the type of citizens we don't need around.:barf:
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Old April 30, 2010, 09:01 AM   #33
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00 Spy: Yes, and no.. I think from reading the other educated comments here that we are both right on various points. Let me try to clarify.. approach keeping the body behind the B-pillar, and leaning forward to view the lap and find the hands. Once that visual inspection has been made, take a step foward keeping your right hand on or near your pistol, but keeping the pistol away from the window opening. Approach would be slightly different for a lefty, where the benefit is his weapon is on the opposite side of the body.

Kmar, great observation regarding the torch in his shooting hand.

Due to my work schedule, I am often driving home through somewhat residential areas around 1am-3am on weekends. As such, I have been the "victim" of pretextual DUI stops more than I care to mention, on occasions when I haven't had a drop of alcohol. It's just that time of night, and the local police are pulling everyone over, I get it. What I usually do is while I'm being pulled over, I'll pull my wallet out and put it on my lap. I have my registration/insurance/etc in a little notebook in the glovebox, so I might take that out and put it on the driver's seat. When I pull over, I turn off the engine, keys out of the ignition, window down half to 3/4s and put my hands on the steering wheel. If it's a dark area, I'll even turn on the interior lights, I have nothing to hide. Only when the officer asks to see license/reg do I take my hands off the wheel.

If I do have to reach into my pocket or glove box to get the documents, I tell the officer what I'm going to do before I do it. "My ID is in my back pocket" and then I reach back and pull it out. Then, "My registration is in the glove box" and I pull that out. I've never been thanked for it, but I would imagine it's appreciated. I wish it was something they taught to kids in driving school, simply how to act during a traffic stop to protect yourself and the police.

BillCA, "clear evidence that all the forms, bureaucratic red-tape and delays required by numerous "gun laws" aren't worth spit." You got that right.
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Old April 30, 2010, 10:33 AM   #34
BillCA
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re: officer's tactics...

Many officers get ambitious to make a stop and contact the driver. You can see a little of it here, where others called out his fidgeting with the radio and flashlight. Normally, you'd adjust the radio (put on your hat, adjust your belt, etc) upon exiting the patrol car then grab the flashlight. But the primary principle is to keep observing the vehicle.

How often have you seen the car ahead of you in traffic is missing it's trunk lock? Or has a broken rear window or rear "vent" window? To the cops, these are indicators that the car may be stolen.

Quote:
There is a video out there somewhere showing some penetration tests of cars. Even rounds that pass through the front end (but miss the engine block) will likely penetrate the cab completely and often exit the sheetmetal of the trunk. There are exceptions, certain reinforced pieces of the subframe or whatever you call those thicker areas of the unibody.
For most automobiles, penetration front to back is poor due to the engine and numerous components under the hood (radiator, pumps, brackets, electronics, etc). Penetration from rear to front is generally better since the trunk is open space and the rear seats often lack a bulkhead behind them.

Side penetration is iffy at best. You have to contend with not only the side-impact "I-beam" in the door, but the window crank (manual) or power window supports. Doors usually have an outer panel and an inner bulkhead to mount armrests, handles and controls, then a decorative trim panel. Interior metal anti-theft baffles near the window sill area can deflect or stop many rounds. Penetration is certainly easier on most cars today than those that are 20 years or older. Without a Magnum round, I would not bet on perforating both doors or sides of the car. If taking cover behind a car, position yourself with the wheels & tires between you and the threat.

.41 Magnum really is an unusual caliber for someone to use. First, they are not that common compared to the .38/.357 or .44s. Ammo can be hard to find as well. It is a difficult gun to fire using the typical full hunting loads (a 210gr JSP @1300 fps) and it generates a lot of noise and recoil. My guess is that Davis bought a stolen gun and perhaps some ammo to go with it.
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Old April 30, 2010, 02:23 PM   #35
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00 Spy: Yes, and no.. I think from reading the other educated comments here that we are both right on various points. Let me try to clarify.. approach keeping the body behind the B-pillar, and leaning forward to view the lap and find the hands. Once that visual inspection has been made, take a step foward keeping your right hand on or near your pistol, but keeping the pistol away from the window opening. Approach would be slightly different for a lefty, where the benefit is his weapon is on the opposite side of the body.
This will NOT give you a better view of the revolver being drawn than being where the officer was and looking down in which you claimed. It may be safer, but the suspect is still able to shield from view quite a bit.

Quote:
...it seems as though the officer is standing rather far forward, in front of the van window. Although depth is hard to judge. If the officer had been standing farther back, close to the rear of the door, it probably would have put him in a better position to see the revolver being drawn,
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Old May 1, 2010, 05:47 AM   #36
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This is another great training video. Hats off to the officer for winning the gunfight. Here are some of my observations, based on 15 years of LE experience:

Action beats reaction every time. This philosophy is why I don't like the traffic stop tactic of standing exposed to the motorist and passengers simply to see what is going on in the car. Even if you do see the movement, it may be too late. The bad guy got the drop on the officer but the officer got some luck and made the very best of it by immediately lessening his exposure.

My choice since my early days on the street was the passenger side approach. A lot more tactical advantages from that side for many different reasons.

Flashlight should be in the support hand. I still see this regularly violated. The officer in this case switched over intead of dropping the light. The process took some valuable time but it didn't matter in end.

The officer did what most officers do now, pull the trigger as fast as you possibly can until you run out of ammo or the threat is out of range. This is how it is done time and time again in gunfights now. I'm not sure if this is what happened pre auto-loader days since I wasn't around then.

I've seen some discussion elsewhere about shooting the operator of a vehicle in motion. You've got to look at the setting here. I don't think there was any real danger to anyone else and even if there were, the officer didn't have much time to ponder it.

As far as the legality, when a criminal tries to destroy your life and then attempts to flee, you are justified 100% in taking immediate action. Good shoot and Officer Jessop's family still gets to enjoy his company.
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Old May 1, 2010, 10:40 AM   #37
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I never thought about it before, but yeah, cops should never carry their light in their dominant hand. Most apparently don't know this.

I think it's harder to get handgun rounds into a car than most people think. Self-defense rounds aren't very good at penetrating hard stuff. When you look at the thin sheet metal cars are made of you would think a bullet would go through 10 layers of it. But it doesn't.

Some jerk fired a shot into my wife's grandmother's car. The bullet enter the right rear quarter panel at a slight angle. The bullet was laying in the trunk. After penetrating just two layers of sheet metal it didn't have enough energy to exit the trunk or damage anything.

I'll bet the police officer had more than one shot lined up with the scum. But the bullets got hung up in the rear door and seats. More likely the seats. The rear door is made of aluminum. I think its a little unfair to say he "missed" 13 times.

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Old May 2, 2010, 10:11 AM   #38
BillCA
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Academy training drilled it into our heads that nothing should be in your strong hand once you start forward towards the vehicle. If you're going to give a citation, leave the cite book on the front fender of your car or inside the car. Approach with any flashlight in your weak hand. The experienced, salty old cops, if you watched them, almost never carried anything in their gun hands, even off-duty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bds32
The officer did what most officers do now, pull the trigger as fast as you possibly can until you run out of ammo or the threat is out of range. This is how it is done time and time again in gunfights now. I'm not sure if this is what happened pre auto-loader days since I wasn't around then.
In the revolver days, a situation like this might've seen the officer fire all six. If he was well trained, perhaps only four shots. But those would likely be .357 Magnums fired a bit slower and perhaps with better aim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfishman
I'll bet the police officer had more than one shot lined up with the scum. But the bullets got hung up in the rear door and seats. More likely the seats. The rear door is made of aluminum. I think its a little unfair to say he "missed" 13 times.
The interior of a vehicle this size is mostly empty space. The driver occupies probably less than 13% of the available seating space. So your odds of making a hit on the driver (vs vehicle) are much lower. The good news here is that the Lincoln Navigator's large rear window offers unfettered access once the first round shatters it. One of Jessop's round fatally wounded Davis. Given the low light, fleeing vehicle and some serious adrenaline-pumping >pucker< factor going on, I'd say he did alright.
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Old May 2, 2010, 04:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
The officer did what most officers do now, pull the trigger as fast as you possibly can until you run out of ammo or the threat is out of range.
I don't think so. Notice how the shots slowed as the suspect got further away? He was aiming deliberately- he wasn't just dumping the mag at the guy.
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Old May 3, 2010, 07:28 PM   #40
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Quote:
The interior of a vehicle this size is mostly empty space. The driver occupies probably less than 13% of the available seating space. So your odds of making a hit on the driver (vs vehicle) are much lower.
To hit the driver anywhere but the upper rear skull or the elbow you would have to shoot through 3 rows of seats and probably the rear lift gate.

BTW - Where did 13% come from?
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Old May 3, 2010, 08:50 PM   #41
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Quote:
The interior of a vehicle this size is mostly empty space. The driver occupies probably less than 13% of the available seating space. So your odds of making a hit on the driver (vs vehicle) are much lower.
Yes, if you are just randomly shooting at the passenger compartment of the vehicle and the driver only occupies 13% of the seating space, then your odds may be lower. Then again, given that you probably have some idea of where the driver is in the vehicle, you can direct your shots accordingly and thereby increase your odds considerably.
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Old May 4, 2010, 12:13 AM   #42
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Still trying to find that test that an agency did a while back. It circulated through most PDs and around the internet. They were shooting through a vehicle with various handguns, rifles and shotguns. The results were frightening to those of us who have been using cars as "cover" for all those years.

Anybody have it? I think it was from the DEA.
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Old May 4, 2010, 09:30 AM   #43
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kmar; this one?

http://www.anret.org/Downloads/ballistics.pdf
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Old May 6, 2010, 02:00 AM   #44
Kmar40
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That's not the one I was thinking of but it is definitely food for thought. Thanks for chasing that down for me.

My googlefu is weak.
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Old May 8, 2010, 05:05 AM   #45
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lucky

I could not watch the video twice.

I saw the juggling act w/ the right hand, but did not go back to determine the cause. I did not see "batting the gun away" but maybe the officer did.

I would have like to have seen a retreat "laterally", (officer's right, ) but what I thought I saw, was a rearward move, creating distance, but maybe not quite in the right direction. Glad there was not passing traffic, in addition to a spent round or whatever caused the failure to fire. Officer could have gotten run over if not shot, or both.

Lateral movement when caught flat footed is probably a good drill for all officers. I am a big fan of passenger side approaches, reducing traffic risk, and increasing visibility of the interior and the driver.
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Old May 8, 2010, 09:58 AM   #46
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Yeah, great point. A quick lateral step means that center mass chest/head shot is a flank shot or a miss. Moving to the rear just means that head or chest shot will hit you in a different spot a few inches higher perhaps. It's the same reason we don't teach crouching anymore.

As an aside, the bad guy is (statistically) more likely to shoot at the level of your firearm (because he's staring at that bore). In fact, hand/arm shots to the gun hand are quite common.

You should practice with all your movements being lateral unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, meaning basically that you are moving into more danger by moving laterally or there is good cover in some other direction.

You should also practice with lateral movement every time you draw or pause for any reason (working the gun or changing mags).

Again, I'm not criticizing. The cop lived to fight another day and the scumbag is dead. That's two wins.
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