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Old April 26, 2010, 07:24 PM   #1
Doc Hoy
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New design for press

Guys,

Perhaps you recall that I have placed myself on a never ending quest for a loading press that works well yet fits into a small package. I admire the Triple P for its obvious quality. But it does not fit into my shooting box. I came up with that design (oak base, movable link and a second piece that is the lever? Remember?) a couple of months ago but it is still a little large and it is finnicky to operate.

So here is the latest design. It reduces to the size of 6" X 3" X 3". If the user were willing to take it apart it would fit into an even smaller space. The wing nut and arbor holds the cylinder relatively solidly. The screw thread pitch could stand being a little steeper because it is a little time consuming to turn the plunger in to compress the load. I made the plunger separate from the screw so as to avoid the scraping of the screw on top of the ball. This would engrave some deformities into the ball or bullet. Better to have the plunger remain in one position.

Note that the plunger is marked with rings so as to permit the user to compress each chmaber equally.


The press works with .36 or larger.
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File Type: jpg Press1.jpg (243.8 KB, 219 views)
File Type: jpg Press3.jpg (241.2 KB, 168 views)
File Type: jpg Press4.jpg (186.3 KB, 150 views)
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Old April 26, 2010, 10:02 PM   #2
Newton24b
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no offense but,, youve made something far to complicated. although i do admit you have a decent idea on applying equal loading depth of bullets....

you have made far to much work to do to reload. reloading needs to be fast and easy. and as such, i can tell you of ways to make a loader stand that would be smaller then what you have now and be far more efficient and easier in regardst o carpal tunnel.
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Old April 26, 2010, 10:33 PM   #3
Tomsfiretruck
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New Press

An engineering marvel to say the least.

Would the average shooter really be able to make this.

Keep up the good work.............

Tom in Temple TX
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Old April 26, 2010, 10:46 PM   #4
ClemBert
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Nice work Doc. However, the least amount of room taken is to use the loading lever that the firearm was designed to use. I know your concerns but I haven't seen any evidence yet that a firearm's lever will fail or wear out before all the other things that could break or wear out. The one issue that someone else pointed out that I wasn't aware of concerned loading conicals into a 1858 where there isn't enough room in the projectile loading area; the cylinder has to be taken out and loaded in that case. When the loading lever gets to the point where it is more trouble than useful I'd like to think a conversion cylinder with 45 Colt BP loads might be in order.
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Old April 27, 2010, 12:06 AM   #5
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All At Once !

Doc!

I like!

But I'm GREEEEEEDY ...

Imagine a half sphere of metal with 6 ramming rods.

I really, really like the "Screw Type" mechanism.

I was looking at a big C-clamp recently and thinking about just this.

Most importantly ... most importantly is that custom loads with the SAME amount of pressure and distance the ball is swaged into the chamber.

I like, I like, I like.

WHERE'S GRYMSTER ! ?
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Old April 27, 2010, 05:44 AM   #6
Doc Hoy
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Responses

Thanks fellas,

Newt,

You are absolutely correct. The use of the screw to load adds a lot of time to the process. In speed of loading the Triple P wins hands down. I guess at sanctioned meets loading quick is very important (Never attended one so I don't really know.) BTW, None taken...It is danged near impossible to offend me. I posted this thing because I want your opinions. Hey...You should have seen the first one I built. It was so big, I had to go from an S-10 to a Colorado just to haul it around.

Tom,

I agree with your thought process. I think the average shooter would not be interested in building one and I also doubt that it could compete with the Triple P in terms of popularity if it were commercially marketed. I like to tinker. I have only used this enough to know that it works but not enough to know how well it works in the field. I'll try it Sunday but I am ready to admit that the time it adds to loading may be a real turn-off.

Clem,

You as well are certainly correct. No one can deny that the loading lever has worked well for about a hundred and eighty years.


Caje,

We are thinking alike. The steeper threads on a C clamp would speed the process. But like Newt says, it would still be slow (I think). Slower than a Triple P. If you don't care about size, that loader (PPP) is hard to beat.

I also thought of a device that the shooter could hold in his hand based upon the design of a vice grip or perhaps a channel lock pliers. But no matter how much I cyphered, I could not make it work (in my head) with less than three hands. One to hold the cylinder and two to operate the press. Another approach was to adapt the design of a caulking gun. Cylinder goes where the caulk tube goes and the mechanism has enough of a mechanical advantage to load all six at once. That one got too big.
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Old April 30, 2010, 09:18 PM   #7
CajunPowder
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Load all 6 chambers at once.

Doc:

The main point I wanted to make is that a loading press could be designed that would load all 6 chambers at one time.

The lever type would not work as the amount of pressure needed would simply be too unwieldy.

BUT, the C-Clamp style rotational press would work.

Instead of one loading rod, a single rod connects to a head that then has 6 loading rods on it. That head then presses all 6 balls into the chambers at one time.

So you just charge all the cylinders, put a ball on top of each, and screw the press down.

You could also of course measure the pressure exerted on each chamber with some sort of gradations on the press rods. The cylinder would of course have to be sitting inside a very secure and snug holder.

With a solenoid type plunger, like in a car's starter, you could even automate it ... with the push of a button.
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Old April 30, 2010, 11:07 PM   #8
Newton24b
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its actually a bad idea realy to do it the way the OP shows his. For starters, even though you can use good material in making it, the strip holding the threaded "ram rod" will eventually fail due to stress loading. that will screw it up.

also if you want to sign a nondisclosure agreement, and have startup capitol, i can show you a large number of designs that would be fast and easy.
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Old May 1, 2010, 12:01 AM   #9
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Actually, as long as the stress on the steel bar remains in its elastic region, the design is a good one, from a structural point of view. Given the relative ductility of lead versus steel, I don't think that enough stress will be applied to the bar to drive it beyond its yield strength - and as long as that doesn't happen, that bar can be strained and still remain undamaged.

All stress is not bad stress. As long as the stress and strain on a ductile material do not exceed the yield strength, the material will return to its original shape none the worse for wear.

As far as the quality of the design goes, my personal feeling is that it's going to be a long haul to get six cylinders loaded with a screw-type loader. But it does achieve the goal of fitting into a small space!
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Old May 1, 2010, 05:35 AM   #10
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Caje, Newt and HC

Caje,

I hope I didn't leave you with the impression that I disagree with you. I have been thinking more about a design that is a good bit like a caulking gun (mentioned previously). That design loads all six at one time. I am not a mechanical engineer so I don't have good familiarity with material stresses and such. But I know that such a design could be made to work. A loading head would almost have to be made for each of the pistols involved. I think it would be very important for each individual ramming stud to be centered in each chamber. The chamber diameter on a Colt .36 is not the same as the diameter on a Remington and both are different from an ROA. So you would need at least two heads and perhaps 3. I don't see that as a drawback because these could be easily designed to be quickly interchangeable. The sequence would proceed in two steps. In the first step a flat head (shaped exactly like the head on a caulking gun) would press the balls (six at a time) until they are flush with the mouth of each chamber. In the second step, you back off the ram, drop in the appropriate head for the cylinder being loaded and then complete the operation.

I chose the caulking gun design because the cylindrical design would hold the cylinder well. In addition, if the ratchet mechanisim in the caulking gun is also part of the design, the mechanical advantage of the ram advance mechanism could be tailored to this application. Remember that one of my requirements is that it must be small enough to fit in my shooting box. I think that is achievable. A properly designed screw type advance could also work and is probably desirable.

Newt,

I agree with you that there is a natural weak point in the center of the strap stock. This would have to be designed out in order for this design to be even moderately successful. I think this will work for me because I can load slowly which would reduce the stress. But this design's primary flaw is the low speed of operation. Most shooters would not tolerate fiddling with this thing. You have to turn the screw about ten to fifteen times to compress properly. I doubt that a serious shooter would go through all of that. As I said, I know it works and hopefully on Sunday morning I will find out if it works acceptably for me. I am almost certain it will never work for other more serious shooters.

Hardcase,

A agree with you. This design with the inherent weak point slap in the center of the bar stock on the top of the loader would probably not be adaptable to load all six at one time. I reduced the distance between the rods from 2 1/2 to 2 so as to increase the ability of the strap to stand the stress of loading. I also agree with you that to load all six at a time, an entirely different design would be needed.
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Old May 1, 2010, 06:09 AM   #11
mykeal
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Interesting, and fun I'm sure, but gee, guys, could you possibly make loading a bp revolver any more complicated?

I will remind you that there once was a charger (flask) that charged all 6 chambers of a Walker cylinder at one time. It did not become popular.
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Old May 1, 2010, 06:32 AM   #12
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Mykeal,

Yes.....Absolutely...It must be complex, convoluted, difficult to make, hard to use. It has to incorporate at least one piece made from that ABS plastic material I have laying around my shop. It has to be so complicated in design that only a photo could do it justice. It has to include (at a minimum) the top half of a C clamp, the bottom half of a caulking gun, the mechanism from a ratchet wrench, the wings from a gear puller, and a McCoy oiler.

If I came up with a design that was without a doubt, the best thing since sliced bread, no one would respond to my posts. They would just say, "Okay..Fine." and move on.

I guess I just crave attention. When I was a kid my mom had to hang a pork chop around my neck just to get the dogs to play with me.

BTW, it was that Patterson flask that inspired my thoughts to load all six at once.
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Old May 1, 2010, 02:09 PM   #13
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Keep up the good effort Doc!
I think that it could have some application for tough loading conicals that are over sized which would otherwise require a lot of effort to seat.
I would also like to see the ram made from brass instead of steel so as to not mar the cylinder at all if there's inadvertent contact.
I wonder if someone could make a cylinder loading attachment for a cartridge case loading press like an inexpensive Lee or arbor press?

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Old May 1, 2010, 04:07 PM   #14
Doc Hoy
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Cap

Quote:
I would also like to see the ram made from brass instead of steel
Excellent idea. I just happen to have some aluminum round stock. That should work.
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Old May 1, 2010, 11:03 PM   #15
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Brass - Remmie

Oh yeah ... it's gotta be made out of brass, the whole thing has to be made out of materials that WILL NOT SPARK.

I think the "total loader" should be made first for the Remmie, as it seems to have a cylinder that is easiest to remove for these purposes.

I worked at one place where I got to make up all the acronyms for products and projects, etc... So I love this type of thought process.

Here are some ideas for names for the project. And perhaps if this is created the gentlemen involved can share in some way. I would just like to get a nice Remmie and then one of these as I certainly intend to purchase at least 2 extra cylinders.

Total Loader
Cylinder Filler
Ram it Full
Quick Ram
Six Baller
Six Rammer
Black Baller
Lead Packer

I LIKE the caulking gun design. Significant force can be achieved with that design. And that the body of the entire mechanism would be a cylinder that the revolver's cylinder would then rest in the bottom of is a good design.

Care must be taken in the design so that it does not scratch or wear the bluing on the cylinder.

I don't think that the charging of the chamber should be automated. They should be charged while sitting in the bottom of this mechanism. It's the ramming of the balls that is important. No fumbling with the cylinder while it has powder in it.

As well, the caulking gun design could guard the charged chambers from wind, or even drizzle.

I think a PVC tube might be the body of this perhaps, but just whistling and thinking.

Selling interchangeable heads with the basic "total loader" would be the real trick. That would get the big boys like Cabela's interested.

I think frontier class CAS shooters would eat this up. Competition target shooters would like this as well. As the tolerances on target guns are often much more refined the target shooters are removing the cylinder for maintainance often anyway.

The Remmie is certainly the one to design for as many people do purchase extra cylinders to enable them to "Clint Eastwood" their shooting sessions.

I have no doubt it can be done. And I still think Grymster needs to pay this thread a visit. With his autocad skills, etc... he's the man.

I want to add the idea of a tripod base that is collapsible, like a camera tripod, (one of those tiny miniature ones), for the entire thing to sit upon.

If it is something like a PVC tube with a caulking gun press integrated, then the cylinder sitting in the bottom fits into a ring in the middle of the low angle tripod legs. The only forces are those generated on the opposing members of the presses handgrip, like a cartridge primer.

With one of these one could even hang out at the range and "charge per cylinder". I know at open air ranges folks are always fascinated with black powder revolvers, why not just open up shop? (Ok, Ok, this is just humor).



I'm not totally sure about legalities, but anybody involved in this thread in a serious way would have the ability to lay some claim to revenues in part if it hit the big time.

There's probably already a patent on a device like this, but if there is not, anyone of us involved in this thread would have the right to enjoin a patent up to a year after it was filed.

And I hate to say it, but the most work in marketing a device like this is the legal divvies.

So I just want a free one.

And it MUST be made in American. Sure, outsoure the machining of the parts perhaps, but final assembly is in America!

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Old May 2, 2010, 06:46 AM   #16
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Caje,

Setting up shop at a range or meet is not such a bad idea. Approaching the membership of a club is another idea.

I am not even close to that point, nor am I confident I will ever get there.

Loading six at a time would be handy but a successful design would have to be able to load five out of six, or one out of six. Easy to focus the forces when loading all six or four or two but if loading only one of six, the focal point of the force is significantly off center. The device would have to be very stout in order to stay in proper alignment and not bind up.
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Old May 2, 2010, 10:00 AM   #17
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Loading six will take a lot of force. Not so sure that the size of a device that stout would be particularly portable.
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Old May 2, 2010, 11:50 AM   #18
wogpotter
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Two words.
"Carpenter's clamp"
Grease gun speed, compact and transportable, lots of force & faster than a screw thread.

Additional thought. Ball bearing where the screw meets the arbor to reduce friction.
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Old May 5, 2010, 01:04 AM   #19
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This is mine, completed yesterday. I thought it would be too light, it isn't. Loading my Pietta 1858 in the gun took extreme pressure, I knew I had to make a press. The center pin screws in, so changing pin diameters will let it work for other revolvers, plus the upper plate slides for different chamber circle diameters. The lever is 8" long, and the distance between the center of the axis pin and the upper link pin is about 1", the leverage is more than sufficient.
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Old May 5, 2010, 05:25 AM   #20
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Loading my Pietta 1858 in the gun took extreme pressure,
Why?
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Old May 5, 2010, 09:37 AM   #21
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That's a mighty fine looking press, HS! Like Mykeal, I wonder why your 1858 takes so much pressure - mine is fairly easy to load. In fact, my 1860 requires more oomph than the Remington!
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Old May 5, 2010, 10:01 AM   #22
Doc Hoy
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Coupla responses

Grym,

Agree. I haven't had a lot of time, over the last coupla days but in the time I have had I simply can not come up with a lever type press that can generate the mechanical advantage, be stout enough and still meet the size requirement. Not one that will load all six at a time. And you have to be able to load, not just six but five or four or three and this adds complexity to the design. Still fiddling.


HisSoldier,

Very very nice looking press. Nice wrokmanship.

To Mykeal et al.,

My Remingtons and Ruger load easier than my Colts.

Tnx,
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Old May 5, 2010, 02:41 PM   #23
HisSoldier
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Quote:
Loading my Pietta 1858 in the gun took extreme pressure,
Why?
I don't know. Reading about the problem it's a recurring one though, maybe the balls are too big, they are swaged .454 balls.
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Old May 5, 2010, 02:52 PM   #24
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HisSoldier, you may want to try .451 swagged balls. I know some of the Pietta 1858 products specify .451 as the ball to use. I know this because my buddy has a Pietta 1858 he bought last year and for which he had me order his lead balls for.

I'd recommend anyone having a tough time to take a second look at their chamber diameters (for those with poor hand/arm strength or arthritis it might not be a firearm/ball problem). Really, the lead (the proper lead) used is very soft and should shave easily. Other than that some folks may be trying to stuff just too much powder such that the resistance is actually the powder compression.
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Old May 5, 2010, 03:08 PM   #25
HisSoldier
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But it's moot since building the press.
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