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Old April 25, 2010, 10:10 AM   #1
N.H. Yankee
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Pizza shop owner arrested for firing gun during gang fight

Pulling a weapon and firing can get you arrested, do you think this pizza shop owner should have been charged? What would you have done in this instance?
We had an incident in Manchester NH at a small pizza place this past week. Members from 3 motorcycle gangs went there and got into a brawl, GEE what a SURPRISE! They started inside and it went out in the street where shooting took place and an innocent high school kid was struck by pellets from a 20ga, he has survived and will be OK, seems like he had no life threatening injuries.

Link http://unionleader.com/article.aspx?...8-a59bae08f98d

During the melee the owner of the pizza shop went outside and fired his handgun to try to scare off the brawlers and get police there faster. He is now being charged with reckless conduct and is out on $10,000 bail. Manchester N.H. PD has a LONG reputation of harassing legal gun owners and being difficult when one wants a permit. I myself experienced this many years ago in the early 70's when I drove an oil truck, went out at all hours and carried large sums of cash. I have never had a record, not even a moving violation in my ENTIRE LIFE!

I was put through H#LL to get that permit actually writing a letter and calling an attorney. The then chief said in a very nasty tone, "if I didn't have to give out permits by law people wouldn't get one" yet two friends of mine who were cops back then in the 70's told me stories of drunks being beaten for no reason in this dept. I guess tyrants don't like anyone else to have any form of power or defense. Sadly this dept is in court fighting more charges of police brutality in 2 recent cases. Fortunately this dept is the exception to the rule in NH and likely elsewhere. Ironically N.H. was just named the safest state to live in.
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:34 PM   #2
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No such thing as warning shotS any longer by police or civilians, KNOW YOUR GUN LAWS AND THE USE OF DEADLY FORCE IF YOU OWN OR CARRY A GUN.
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:55 PM   #3
kgpcr
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A fight in a parking lot outside and he goes out and fires in the air. What an idiot. As long as its outside and i am inside i say let them beat the snot out of each other!! Call 911 and wait it out. go lock the front door if you can and after that pop some popcorn and watch the show. Or you could go outside and start shooting warning shots and **** of the bikers. Not very bright
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Old April 25, 2010, 01:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Manchester N.H. PD has a LONG reputation of harassing legal gun owners and being difficult when one wants a permit.
No issues getting permits when I lived there not long ago. I helped somebody get a permit there as well, also with no issues. In fact, Manchester is the only place in the state that I know of that allows people to apply online. The 1970's ended a good 30 years ago.

As for the Pizza shop owner, he made the wrong call. Warning shots, especially in a city, are reckless. If a situation calls for deadly force don't fire warning shots, and if it doesn't call for deadly force then don''t fire at all.
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Old April 25, 2010, 02:53 PM   #5
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I think it's a fairly safe bet that most here wouldn't have fired at all. I'd have kept my gun handy and fired only at somebody that was directly threatening me with death or great bodily harm. I doubt that even the police of an elitist town could argue against that, and if so, see you in court.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:14 PM   #6
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He was in the wrong, and if I was on the jury I'd make sure he got a strongly worded memo not to do that again, along with a recommendation that he get his gun and permit back.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:19 PM   #7
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If the pizza owner fired his handgun after the high school student was injured by the shotgun blast, then there may be justification for the shooting by the pizza owner. Unless NH laws are different than here, lethal force may be used to stop lethal force.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:26 PM   #8
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I don't know what the laws are regarding 'warning shots', and, quite frankly, don't care that much. Whether or not the 'warning shot' was legal is really irrelevant in this circumstance. Was it the right thing to do? Maybe. Can't say. But there was nothing wrong, or reprehensible, in doing it.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:57 PM   #9
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Warning shots are generally dumb, but *sometimes* they do work.

What he should have done was find a safe backstop to absorb the bullet. In this case, I'm thinking a Harley's gas tank .
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Old April 25, 2010, 04:52 PM   #10
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Warning shots are for Hollywood.
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Old April 25, 2010, 04:59 PM   #11
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+1

GUNSITE said it in post #2.

Know your gun laws. Use of deadly force is only authorized, in states where civilian CCW is legal, if you or a third party is in imminent danger of death...

(the wording can be different from state to state, but IIRC none of them allow firing 'warning shots'...)
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:03 PM   #12
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Quote:
If the pizza owner fired his handgun after the high school student was injured by the shotgun blast, then there may be justification for the shooting by the pizza owner. Unless NH laws are different than here, lethal force may be used to stop lethal force.
Reportedly the shot that injured the bystander was fired as people were leaving, which would seem to indicate it occurred after (possibly in response to?) the shop owners "warning shots".
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:03 PM   #13
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Sympathy for the pizza shop guy but that really was a bone head move no matter how well intentioned. Especially in that little hot bed of political correctness. He will be lucky if he still has a business by the time the city fathers pet dogs get done mauling him.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:19 PM   #14
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I totally agree he didn't use common sense, this is a VERY populated area. I think the guy just flat out panicked! I posted this because I have seen a few posts here where folks seem to think the minute you think or feel threatened you are allowed to fire at will, NOT! There are apt. buildings everywhere around and its pretty much inner city. Matter of fact its illegal to fire a gun within Manchester city limits!

I haven't gotten a permit in Manchester since the days of chief Tom King who was heavy handed, there was also a post here recently about a guy who felt he was harassed by Manchester PD for carrying a gun but I think both he and the police were not using the best judgment. If you listen to Penny Dean a local gun rights lawyer she has had a few cases involving THIS PD as well as other local PD's denying permits when they had no right to do so.

Sometimes I think there is no written guideline in some departments and it seems to be at the will of whoever is on duty to sign these. I believe N.H. is a shall issue state, but not all PD's seem to agree, One even added questions to the state form which is illegal. I guess a few people who frequent Luigi's wish they had opted for DiGiorno's after that melee.
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Last edited by N.H. Yankee; April 25, 2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:21 PM   #15
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I can sympathize with the owner, but a warning shot is the wrong thing to do. That bullet is coming down somewhere and just might end up hitting an innocent bystander down the street.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:36 PM   #16
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ATW525, I was wondering the same thing because the pizza shop owner was arrested a couple days after the guy who shot the teenager was arrested. I have to wonder if he made a statement to the police he thought he was being shot at and fired in that direction. Unfortunately there is no time line mentioned and no mention as to where the people involved were standing. As usual we get half the story and have to try to fill in the blanks.

Sadly a friend of mine from the late 60's son was shot to death just up the street from this place by another motorcycle gang member for wearing a Hell's angels T-shirt he had bought a few days earlier during motorcycle week at the Loudon N.H. racetrack. He was not a member of any bike gang, just a hard working guy who went to the wrong dew drop in when a scumbag from a biker gang saw his shirt and decided he was dissed and this guy had to die. Not the best idea to be walking around with a Hell's angels shirt on, but you shouldn't have to die for it either.
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Old April 25, 2010, 06:22 PM   #17
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Regardless of the location of the falling bullet ( could have been in the ground ) Two things jumped out at me immediately.

Quote:
They started inside and it went out in the street where shooting took place and an innocent high school kid was struck by pellets from a 20ga, he has survived and will be OK, seems like he had no life threatening injuries.
And

Quote:
During the melee the owner of the pizza shop went outside and fired his handgun to try to scare off the brawlers and get police there faster.

So the Pizza owner may very well have been the person who initiated the firing from the gang members.

Heated fight , Hear a gun shot in the midst of the brawl , and Grab for your own weapon in self defense.

It was a bad move on his part...... Hopefully , with more details to the case , he has a damn good lawyer and hopefully his poor decision isn't what caused this 20 year old's scars and possibly others deaths.

I understand his mentality ..... But if shots hadn't already been fired , best not to open that can of worms ( unless perhaps it's like 2-3 people fighting where you can see all that's happening in a very tight area )

If Shots had already been fired , then his attempt was absolutely and utterly pointless because the first shot placed would have scared anyone if it was going to work.
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Sadly a friend of mine from the late 60's son was shot to death just up the street from this place by another motorcycle gang member for wearing a Hell's angels T-shirt he had bought a few days earlier during motorcycle week at the Loudon N.H. racetrack. He was not a member of any bike gang, just a hard working guy who went to the wrong dew drop in when a scumbag from a biker gang saw his shirt and decided he was dissed and this guy had to die. Not the best idea to be walking around with a Hell's angels shirt on, but you shouldn't have to die for it either.
Three Cousins?
When I lived in Manchester, I had a neighbor who was murdered. Supposedly he was the only eyewitness to the shooting at Three Cousins. They caught the guy (the victim's girlfriend's daughter's boyfriend or something like that), but I never heard anything about it being related to his testimony. Seems like an awfully big coincidence, though.
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Old April 26, 2010, 06:14 AM   #19
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Firing warning shots around his area's home team? Seems incredibly short sighted on so many levels.
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Old April 26, 2010, 07:59 AM   #20
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Warning shots are stupid for many reasons already mentioned. What else really needs to be said?

The fact that the cops in the guy's district are authoritarian anti-gunners is a different and important issue, but irrelevant to the fact that running outside to fire warning shots is stupid.
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Old April 26, 2010, 05:42 PM   #21
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ATW525 yes I think its the same one, the man who was murdered was named Denoncourt. I lived 4 houses down from his mother Doris and uncle Andre back in the 60's in Goffstown. Seems like pizza, beer and bullets are a common combination in Manchester, first of all I'm glad I don't live in Manchester, and if I did, can you say DELIVERY PLEASE! I used to eat at Luigi's 37 years ago when it was on Massabesic and Belmont street corner. There were different owners back then and it was a VERY safe neighborhood, boy how things have changed!

Warning shots besides the obvious safety issue are a waste of ammo you might regret using, and most of all may incite something that may not have happened had one not fired the warning shot or shots. I hate to say it but there are quite a few people who either don't understand or have disregard toward the possible dire circumstances of pulling a weapon when not warranted. I think in most cases it can come down to a mere second or so between not being legal and being in defense of ones life. This is just the nature of violent acts and as stated many times it can be a no win situation either way.
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Last edited by N.H. Yankee; April 26, 2010 at 05:48 PM.
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Old April 26, 2010, 05:49 PM   #22
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Maybe he fired into the air because he's a bad shot and just missed. (that should have been his story anyway)
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Old April 26, 2010, 05:52 PM   #23
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Use of deadly force, the most important decision you will ever make.
Warning shot= Bad decision.
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Old May 2, 2010, 08:35 PM   #24
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If I need to unconceal a concealed weapon it means deadly force is the only way to end the confrontation....seems like a pretty uneducated shop owner, who unfortunately will get hammered for it
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Old May 3, 2010, 04:37 AM   #25
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Yep probably illegal here. Ill advised almost anywhere. BTW, it isn't deadly force until you pull the trigger.

Also makes me rethink getting a 20-gauge.
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