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Old April 25, 2010, 12:10 AM   #1
jerryv
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.451 or .454

hello i am jerry. new to this forum and new to bp revolvers. i would like to ask a few questions about these guns.
a friend gave me two revolvers. one looks just like the 1858 new army .44 cal in the cabelas catalog. it has no name or #s on it at all. the other one is just like the 1858 new army texas .44 caliber in the same catalog. it has ser # and eie italy on the butt. could these be remington guns? do you think the replacement pistol parts kit jk-21-4052-885 will work in them? also i will cast the balls using melted wheel weights, should i get the .451 or .454 mold?

i have been reading here for a while and have found a lot of helpful information. answers to questions that i didnt know i had. thanks
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:18 AM   #2
zippy13
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Greetings jerryv, and welcome aboard

Assuming they are replicas in .44s, the correct ball size is .454.
Real Remingtons aren't marked Italy
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Old April 25, 2010, 01:05 AM   #3
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Not really advisable to use WW to cast balls for BP. I tried it contrary to what some said, and learned the hard way. They don't seem to want to stay seated once pushed into the cylinder. They want to slide back out after even very light recoil of another round or sometimes just while hanging upside down in the holster and hosteling around. I personally would not suggest WW, find some pure lead.
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Old April 25, 2010, 01:19 AM   #4
Hawg Haggen
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Stick on wheel weights are 99.5% pure lead and work fine. Clip on weights are too hard. Go with the .454 mold. Get a double cavity mold, you'll be glad you did.
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Old April 25, 2010, 06:58 AM   #5
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Welcome to the forum.

The answer to whether or not they're real Remington guns is yes and no. No, they were not manufactured by a company named Remington. Yes, they are a design that's known as the 1858 Remington.

As to the parts kit - there are a number of different manufacturers that produced 1858 Remington replicas. It is generally not a good idea to use parts from one manufacturer in a different manufacturer's gun, simply because they will probably require some handwork to fit properly. For that reason you can expect that the parts in that kit will likely take some work along those lines. That being said, that's likely the best that you can do for spare parts until you find out who manufactured your guns.
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:07 AM   #6
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You should measure the chamber size to determine the best RB size, not all clones use the same RB. Use a RB .006 larger than the chamber opening.

If you can post some pic's we may be able to ID your revolvers. Any marking on them well help also.

Welcome.
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:20 AM   #7
Doc Hoy
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Welcome to the forum

Jerry,

Great to have you with us.

If you are not able to measure the chamber size, you should look for a ring of lead to be shaved off of the ball during the ramming segment of the loading operation.

This ring should be more or less a complete circle or ring. I find that .454s work in both of my Remington clones. Both of my pistols are manufactured by Armi San Marco and are mid 1970s vintage. Make sure to lube the bullets before loading.

I can recall only one question that was ever posed to this group that didn't get a definitive answer.
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Old April 25, 2010, 08:44 AM   #8
Hawg Haggen
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Ummmm, Doc how do ya lube a round ball before loading?
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Old April 25, 2010, 09:23 AM   #9
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Schmear it wth a big patch liberally daubed with crisco.
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Old April 25, 2010, 09:30 AM   #10
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Quote:
Schmear it wth a big patch liberally daubed with crisco
Smartazz
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Old April 25, 2010, 09:48 AM   #11
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Hawg

I keep the round balls in a tub that I get Chinese food in. I put about a teaspoon of bore lube in the tub with about a hundred balls. Then I shake it around until the balls are covered with lube.

I used to pick up the balls with my fingers but that is too messy so I made a little tweezers out of poplar to pick them up. Keeps the operation a whole lot less messy.
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:26 PM   #12
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Ok but don't you get lil pieces of shaved lead stuck all over everything?
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Old April 25, 2010, 02:11 PM   #13
wogpotter
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Smartazz
Well, having gotten that out of my system................
So, why lube the balls?
Seriously I've never heard of this till now & I'm curious. I usually use a lubed wad under the ball but can't figure out why I'd lube the ball itself.
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Old April 25, 2010, 02:15 PM   #14
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Seriously I've never heard of this till now & I'm curious. I usually use a lubed wad under the ball but can't figure out why I'd lube the ball itself.
Me either but you know doc.
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Old April 25, 2010, 02:26 PM   #15
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Hawg and Jerry

I find that the round balls load about eighteen times (That is an exageration)easier if I lube them. I had an 1851 pattern in .44 that simply would not load unless I lubed the balls. Not even .451s. I bought a replacement cylinder and it was moderately better but still did not want to accept the ball without lube.

I think that every pistol should load using the loading lever. That is to say that no pistol should need to be taken apart and loaded with a press. (My personal opinion). I like using a press and probably will not use the lever on any pistol ever again but a press should not be a mandatory part of the loading process for any pistol (with the right ball and with the ball lubed)

I am one who believes that the loading process (using the lever) might be as hard on a pistol as shooting the pistol and I am especially conscious of this when shooting Colt style revolvers. (Please...don't lets resurrect the Colt versus Remington discussion)

Quote:
but you know Doc
Hey hey hey! It is great to know I have established a reputation! So what if it is not a good one.?!

I really assumed that everyone lube their round balls as well as their conicals.
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Last edited by Doc Hoy; April 25, 2010 at 02:53 PM.
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Old April 25, 2010, 03:22 PM   #16
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Carrying on with this discussion and diverging just a little

This is for Jerry.

You are about to embark on a very addictive process. I never call this a hobby because that cheapens the devotion that most of us feel toward shooting black powder.

When you read any of my posts it is worth while to understand that I never shoot with other folks. I never belonged to a club and never intend to join one. I am one of the very few in the group who purposely shoots alone. It is easy to see that this results in me having some odd ideas about shooting. So the things I know, the practices I use are only those things I have learned over the years by shooting and by reading. My habits work for me but I don't suggest that you adopt my practices without an endorsement from someone else who has had the opportunity to validate the practice with safety and wisdom.

This business of lubing round balls is a glowing example. I thought everyone lubed both conicals and round balls. I have always done it and I started doing it because I read somewhere that all bullets should be lubed but not everyone uses a lubed wad. I do find that it eases the loading process.

I encourage you to read this forum often. Ask questions a lot. Join a group and shoot with others. Above all...shoot safe.

Keep the muzzle down range.
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Old April 25, 2010, 04:23 PM   #17
Hawg Haggen
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Hey hey hey! It is great to know I have established a reputation! So what if it is not a good one.?!
You have a very good reputation here Doc.

Quote:
I really assumed that everyone lube their round balls as well as their conicals.
I generally use lubed wads under the balls and I use the loading lever exclusively. That IS what it was made for after all.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:34 PM   #18
wogpotter
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Same with me! I figured the lube in the wads would provide enough slip to ease loading.

You're using a grease type lube on the balls Doc?

Next time I get to the range I'll try it, why not I might learn something more.

I do load with the lever on my 58 Remmy BTW & it could be a little easier on the hand.
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Old April 25, 2010, 05:49 PM   #19
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I guess I have tough hands, doesn't bother me.
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Old April 25, 2010, 06:24 PM   #20
mykeal
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Just because sometimes I like to be contrary....

Here's a c&b gun that requires the use of a loading press:
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:01 PM   #21
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Crisco and Toilet Cookies

Wog,

I mix up a one pound can of Crisco with two wax rings. It is far less runny than Thompson's (which I have really come to loath) in the heat of the summer. It is a little stiff when the weather is cold (Or if I happen to shoot in the freezer ) but at least it stays where I put it.

It has been a long time since wax rings were made with real beeswax. I think they are primarily parafin. Many think that anything with petroleum in it is sacrilige and I don't dispute that. I just have not seen the negative impact of using this concoction. It does what I want and seems to leave no nasty residue. I run a patch through the barrel about every third round (18 shots).

Up until this seaon I loaded exclusively with the loading lever. Loading levers work and have worked for about a hundred and eighty years. I didn't go to a press because, 1) I didn't see the need since all of my pistol have a loading lever. and 2) No loading press existed which would fit in my shooting box. (No room if I take along enough beer.............Just kidding, I never mix alcohol and gun powder, although I do drink several Guiness Stouts while posting on this forum)

Well, now.....

I came to consider the stress that is placed upon the pistol during the loading process if you use the loading lever. If I calculate the mechanical advantage of the lever and estimate correctly the force applied with the hand, it is about like suspending a 327 Chevy engine block from the arbor. I am not kidding here, I think this stress is quite high. One might be prompted to ask, "If the stress is too high, why do pistols survive thousands of rounds, all of which are loaded with the lever and still maintain a good gap?" To that I say, "I don't know." But not applying the force is better than applying it.

Then I got to work designing a collapsable loading press which was the subject of a thread some months ago. The design is far from perfect but I think it works pretty good. It fits inside a space much smaller than the "Triple P" and with some fidgeting I can load with it fairly quickly. As a footnote, I have developed a new design which is even smaller and works about three times better. I will be posting some photos tomorrow.

So now, I am convinced that a loading press is almost indispensible even if it does fly in the face of history.
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My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

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Old April 25, 2010, 07:20 PM   #22
Hawg Haggen
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it is about like suspending a 327 Chevy engine block from the arbor
Is that with or without heads and crank? Straight plug heads or angle plug heads?
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Old April 25, 2010, 07:58 PM   #23
Doc Hoy
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Everything...

...including the Rochester.
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My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
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Old April 25, 2010, 10:19 PM   #24
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Welcome to the asylum, jerryv. Please pardon the other patients, they get excited when a new patient checks in. Read gatofeo's excellent sticky at the top of this forum. From there, you're on your own but it'll be fun!
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Old April 25, 2010, 10:23 PM   #25
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Doc-step away from the Rochester and order a Holley 650 or maybe a Demon-unless you really like tinkering with lost causes.
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My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.
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