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Old April 25, 2010, 09:35 AM   #26
SundownRider
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Why not use Marko Koos argument of Force vs Reason?

http://www.terry-hall.org/reason_vs_force.htm
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:45 PM   #27
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I like the Marko Koos argument
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Old April 25, 2010, 12:59 PM   #28
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I'm with JohnK on the predictable outcome of a discussion with folks who base their civic opinions on emotion. I have seen a few undergo a life-changing event which underscored the fact that there are detestable, evil people in this world who will only be deterred by the solemn knowledge that random good folks will blow a cat-sized hole through them- if pressed to do it.
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Old April 27, 2010, 05:58 AM   #29
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If your friend believes in the three statements you listed in the beginning of your post it logically follows that semi-auto rifles, shotguns and pistols fit into those statements also.

Why does he feel semi-auto weapons should be banned?

If he thinks the 2nd Amendment allows a person to own a firearm for self defense purposes and to guard against tyranny, why would he feel the need to ban semi-auto firearms?
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Old April 27, 2010, 07:50 AM   #30
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that is what is so frustrating.
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Old April 27, 2010, 08:04 AM   #31
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If you are frustrated because someone doesn't change a deeply held conviction over the course of a single conversation, you are in for a life of frustration. Normal people do not do that.

If you express a position with merit, someone on the other side who possesses a normal amount of courtesy and reason may come to see the merit in what you've said over time. That doesn't mean he converts or submits; it means he sees that you have a point. Once a person sees that you've a point, he can reconsider the merit of his own position.

Part of the trick of a conversation about guns is being sure that both people are discussing the same topic. If one person is discussing a civil rights and political issue based on constitutional ideas and the other is discussing a safety based on his anxieties about society, you may not be discussing the same topic.
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Old May 2, 2010, 07:23 AM   #32
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One of the arguments I use is that law abiding gun owners are responsible people. If you go to the FBI crime tables and pull out firearm deaths and and show them against the number of against the millions of legally owned firearms in the United States. The number that abuse firearms is very small.

That is the segment of the population where the laws need to be addressed. not against law abiding gun owners. A law establishes a societal norm. The enforcement of the law and the punishment of the law breaker is where the solution lies. However you have the one per-centers who do not believe in the rule of law. So you can pass all the laws you want on gun control and it will not change criminals or the one-percenters.
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Old May 2, 2010, 08:32 AM   #33
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Quote:
Where do I go with this now? There is no logical way to convert him.
There is no logical way to convert him because his position is not based on logic. He has embraced gun control on the basis of emotion and has already rejected logic through his rationalization of his personal gun ownership.
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Old May 2, 2010, 09:43 PM   #34
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Fear is a powerful motivator. Fear of guns. Fear or someone taking your guns. Fear of terrorists. Fear of government.

If someone is afraid of guns, it is emotional, but it is perfectly valid to them. If someone talks about a "left-wing conspiracy", I consider that illogical, and based on fear as well.

Being truly objective and logical about anything is very difficult. The vast majority of people that say that they are purely logical are far from it. Formal logic is a very difficult thing to wrap your head around, and statistics? That way madness lies.

The right-leaning and conservative sides of the political spectrum are every bit as guilty of using fear and emotionally-based rhetoric as the left. It has been a tool of politics as far back in history as we have been able to look. "The mob" is most easily motivated by simple, emotional things. They most fear things they do not understand - guns, other races, other cultures, other countries, and other points of view.

Accusing someone on the other side of the argument of being illogical, or hopeless, or unable to change only mirrors your own tunnel vision. Absolutely no gun control whatsoever (ie. let small children take full-auto weapons to playtime) is as silly as absolute gun control. The trick is finding the right place in the middle. To claim that your own viewpoint is purely correct and purely logical is the height of arrogance.
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Old May 3, 2010, 07:33 AM   #35
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Once heard of an Australian military member being interviewed by an anti-gun journalist. Seems the journalist (a female) was upset because the military was teaching a course to young teens on many aspects of shooting, archery, survival, etc.

Although SNOPES said the supposed conversation never took place, the logic of the military guy's response to one of her comments is fantastic.

After listening to her describe how this program served only to "equip youngsters to be violent killers," the Aussie officer replied: "Well, just because you are equipped to be a prostitute doesn't mean you are one, does it?"

The point here is that it's all about mindset, and I really like this story...
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Old May 3, 2010, 10:05 AM   #36
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Don't use that argument - it sounds clever but when used, it turns off audiences for its vulgarity. It's a joke for the choir, that's all.
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Old May 3, 2010, 10:12 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn
it turns off audiences for its vulgarity
You're right of course, unfortunately. I just tend to be a little more PI (politically incorrect) than I should be sometimes.
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Old May 3, 2010, 10:33 AM   #38
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A professor used that argument in some college discussion on gun control. Since it was fake - that crucified him once. Then his perceived inappropriate vulgarity crucified him again. It was in the college business newspaper.

There was little sympathy for him. It's like the Hitler quote - fake and gets you nowhere.
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Old May 3, 2010, 11:47 AM   #39
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Whether the interview was fake or not doesn't really matter. IMO, the analogy and the point it makes are sound. If people have been crucified for using this statement, I have to wonder if the reaction is due to the vulgarity or because it strikes a nerve and the "crucifiers" don't want to admit it.
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Old May 3, 2010, 04:33 PM   #40
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Sometimes people just become set in their ways - and arguing with them gets you nowhere fast. Usually if you push an argument it just becomes a point of pride for the person involved to not let you win - so no one is listening or rationally considering the issue at that point.

As someone else said most people don't change in a day - don't argue - agree to disagree and if he is amenable sometime go shooting with him - earn his trust and respect and given time he may hear what you are saying. That is about the only way I see people change - time, experience, and trust.

I have two close relatives - one is stubborn and set in his ways, but if you just say your thoughts and agree to disagree with him and then let him take the time to check it out on his own and think about it awhile - he will more often than not come around.

The other knows everything about everything - I once heard him lecture a mother of two on childbirth and how she was wrong about whatever it was. Sometimes I am surprised he is still alive - but you really can't talk to him about any issue - and sometimes you just have to know when to let it go.

I would say something about arguing with women, for any extremely young guys on here, but heck I had to learn the hard way so why should I spare them the pain. So I won't be accused of sexism I should say something for women about arguing with guys, but really they don't need any help.
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Old May 3, 2010, 05:32 PM   #41
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This is someone i work with quite a bit. To give you an idea, the discussion posted about took place in several pigeon coops(homers and rollers) while cleaning them out.

In the last week or so we have been to hard pressed to solve the worlds emergency problems such as the great oil slick and AZ immigration to get back to gun control.
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:11 PM   #42
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Try this. He has a few guns for hunting so he obviously likes to shoot to some degree. Invite him to shoot with you, leaving any argument out of it. Just call that you are plinking for an afternoon, etc. Take any guns you have that he thinks should be banned. Bring another friend maybe, and his guns. Try out his guns and ask him to try your's. Holding a "bad gun" and shooting it may have some effect on his thinking. If he likes that weapon, it may be harder for him to advocate banning it. He's not evil and did nothing evil with it, etc. Sometimes such things cause a person to rethink. I agree, some people cannot be reasoned with. It is possible with some. May not happen all at once. Best wishes with this.
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Old May 4, 2010, 08:22 PM   #43
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I have been considering taking him shooting. I let my membership to my local club with a good range expire this year. I am going to check out a public range(with RO I know) tomorrow. If it goes well I may invite him there.
I still have access to my old club for CMP, NDR(rimfire pistol), and RRL(rimfire rifle legue) shoots, so i may see if i can get him to one of those. I think the CMP guys would be the most helpful and it would allow him to shoot an AR, M1 Carbine, Grand, and mini-14 if he wanted.
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Old May 22, 2010, 05:50 PM   #44
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polite conversations

I had a conversation with a liberal lady long ago the subject came up on guns she was anti, I just took a shot in the dark and mentioned mine had never been used for the bad and most are 60 plus years old museume quality
She said "I never thought about the collector aspect" I then informed her these oldies are functionaly the same as the new manufactured. the tecnology has been fairly the same for some time.
I think this helped her think outside the box.
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Old May 22, 2010, 06:04 PM   #45
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Back when Britain lost the battle to keep firearms, there was crap all over the news about how gun involved violence was on the rise. How horrible guns were and how easy it made a life of crime a viable option. Those that would disarm a nation used the media to promote their agenda and scare the majority of people into giving up their basic right to defend themselves with firearms.

Now, guess what's all over the news in Britain? Knife violence is becoming uncontrollable. It's on the rise. How knives make a persons choice of a life of crime easier.

Will they then remove all knives from the public and make butter knives the only legal knife a person can own?

Then it will get to the media clamoring on about clubs and sticks and rocks.

There's a lot of truth to the old saying that if you make it illegal for the regular public to own guns, only the police and the criminal's will own them. But that's also very misleading as well. Look at Britain today. Guns are RARELY used in crimes now. The police don't have guns, the public can't own guns. It's so hard to get a gun over there that even the criminals have resorted to what is legal. Knives.

But just how many deaths is that preventing? Who knows. But it doesn't stop the criminal element from being criminals and there's now more crime per 100,000 people than ever before.

Some people, like liberals, just can't figure out how this will work out. Holding the individual responsible? Can't have that now can we? That would mean too many people who think for themselves.
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Old May 22, 2010, 10:15 PM   #46
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How do I convert him?

You don't. And you stop trying. You've already said you two have several points of agreement. Just stop there and let him support gun control. BUT...

Push the argument that what is needed, and ALL that is needed is enforcement (and punishment) of already existing laws. That's all we need. Just do the damn job.

See if you can get a commitment from him on that. THAT IS A VICTORY. He doesn't have to join the movement for repeal, or march or anything, except say STOP! ENOUGH! Do the job with what you have!

He doesn't feel the need for more than what he has, and like many, many unthinking individuals, feels that the rest out to be controlled, one way or another. After all, you can see 24/7 somebody getting shot on the screen, the news is so slanted a brick would roll on the slope. His world is his life, and what the screen and papers tell him it is. And absent to direct personal experience to the contrary, he'll believe that the answer is the one they keep telling him it is. Hell, see how he feels about Helmet Laws!? He may be a closet passionate libertarian on some other subject.

If he is, and actually uses logic for his basis on that subject, you have a chance of making him see the logic on the other subject. But don't force it. As long as you can get him to stop supporting then constant more!, More! MORE! from the gun banner crowd, as long as you can get him to see that "If I could get 51% of the votes, MR and Mrs America, turn them all in!" is NOT the way to handle the problem, its a win.
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Old May 22, 2010, 11:40 PM   #47
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Hard to use facts against emotion. We all know facts can be skewed and his emotions are real to him. I don't try to convert folks like him. I envy folks like him. He doesn't know that bad guys have guns now, have had them for a long time and will likely always have them. I hope he never learns otherwise, but if he does I'll have a place to start, if he survives.
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Old May 23, 2010, 01:19 AM   #48
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Well ... I have a few things to say about the subjects being discussed.

I am a Libertarian who believes in less laws and governance, and more freedoms.

Therefore ... gun control of any kind is against my beliefs.

This quote rings true in this situation ....

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” ~ Thomas Jefferson

In this quote Thomas Jefferson was emphasizing his beliefs in the possibility of this great country in becoming a Democracy instead of a Republic. The original signers of the Constitution ,and our founding fathers originally forged this country using Pure Republican ideas. Not the ideas of today's Republican party.
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Old May 23, 2010, 06:09 AM   #49
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You are fighting a losing battle. People who harbor those types of attitudes are basing their ideas not on logic, but fear and prejudice, based on erroneous stereotypes and misinformation. You can use all manner of tactics (such as "the argument of the beard," analogies et. al.), but you will, in all likelihood, never get anywhere.
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Old May 23, 2010, 06:00 PM   #50
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I guess I should add that one of the reasons I think this person is worth a little more effort is that I believe he is a ?person of influence? in the "progressive" community.

Besides, I do a lot of projects with him where we BS while we work. Someday BP is going to get this oil thing under control and then we are going to need something else to talk about.
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