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Old April 25, 2010, 11:03 PM   #26
GM1967
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I agree that both skills are good to know. I disagree emphatically with the notion that hand to hand skills take years or decades of training to produce a useful result. Certainly they take years to master....but as little as half an hour of teaching can impart some techniques that can be very useful defensively, and make someone better than they were before by an order of magnitude. I'm not saying it will make someone able to win a fight, but teaching them how to break a grip, basic blocking, a few other techniques like that, can give someone who had no training at hand to hand a fighting chance -- to get away, or to draw or get to a gun, if one is available.
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Old April 26, 2010, 01:25 PM   #27
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
I disagree emphatically with the notion that hand to hand skills take years or decades of training to produce a useful result. Certainly they take years to master....but as little as half an hour of teaching can impart some techniques that can be very useful defensively, and make someone better than they were before by an order of magnitude. I'm not saying it will make someone able to win a fight, but teaching them how to break a grip, basic blocking, a few other techniques like that, can give someone who had no training at hand to hand a fighting chance -- to get away, or to draw or get to a gun, if one is available.
It is certainly true that a few minutes training can make a difference in certain areas. However, the question was "which first". Since being able to break a grip or block a strike has little value without some other skill or tool to back it up, the answer is still the same....

Carrying a gun without any training at all can be and has repeatedly been shown to be effective at preventing crime/injury to the defender.

Small amounts of H2H training may be useful in allowing someone to reach a firearm, but if they're not carrying one then the potential benefit is entirely lost and we are back to a type and level of training that takes years, or decades, to acquire.

Therefore "which first", the answer is "gun".
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Old April 27, 2010, 12:26 AM   #28
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Nobby45: "Ah Jeez. Well, while some are learning to get "comfortable" amidst multiple assailants and setting up camp, I'll opt for those skills that get me the #%$@ out of there. Being in my mid 60's, I've come to the realization that I'm actually mortal."

While some of it may be advertising, we actually did learn skills that would help in these situations. And there were a few there your age.
I sorta figured that and it actually sounds like worthwhile training to me.
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Old April 27, 2010, 03:18 PM   #29
Old Grump
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I predicated my answer on the fact that I did my best shooting when I was also training for and competing in boxing. The discipline learned shooting helped me keep my focus when I was being pummeled by faster fighters than me and the strength and stamina gained from my boxing made the physical part of shooting easy. After the end of the 2nd day on a hot dusty range shooting in windy conditions in New Mexico I still felt strong and my scores showed it. After my service days I took up long distance walking and power lifting and again my shooting showed it. The better condition I was in the more consistent my shooting was.

Besides there is something about the way you carry yourself when you are physically fit and able to answer with or without a weapon that makes boogermen shy away from you. I guarantee all the best shooters you ever see are in fairly good shape and a lot of them are good at other athletic endeavors. You don't need to be a great athlete to be a good shooter but being in shape and walking with confidence does wonders for you when you are concentrating on that next shot. This is what is great about shooting, your reflexes and your hand/eye coordination don't need to be Olympic caliber to be a great shooter.
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Old April 27, 2010, 03:28 PM   #30
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Martial Arts are Martial Arts

My opinion is just that. I am a Shorin Ryu Blackbelt and I also shoot in IPSC. I practice both at about the same level. I'm in the dojo 3 nights a week. I shoot about 600 rounds a week. If one wants to be proficient in either discipline they need to commit to that discipline. The only advantage to a firearm is that there is a fair likelihood that the firearm owner will have the overwhelming force. As to the manual martial art untrained vs. trained my money is on the trained. Highly trained karateka vs firearms, I'll take the firearm owner.....if the distance is greater than 21' (Tueller Drill). Of all the martial arts I've been exposed to I am truly impressed by Krav Maga. Fast accumulation of usable skills.
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Old April 27, 2010, 09:56 PM   #31
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My opinion is just that. I am a Shorin Ryu Blackbelt and I also shoot in IPSC. I practice both at about the same level. I'm in the dojo 3 nights a week. I shoot about 600 rounds a week. If one wants to be proficient in either discipline they need to commit to that discipline. The only advantage to a firearm is that there is a fair likelihood that the firearm owner will have the overwhelming force. As to the manual martial art untrained vs. trained my money is on the trained. Highly trained karateka vs firearms, I'll take the firearm owner.....if the distance is greater than 21' (Tueller Drill). Of all the martial arts I've been exposed to I am truly impressed by Krav Maga. Fast accumulation of usable skills.
Excellent 1911. I made the martial arts and IDPA/IPSC my 'hobbies' about 30 years ago!

May I also suggest (if you are not already doing it) take up hip shooting (didn't say point shooting, just hip shooting, a sort of sub set.) That way, you can use your gun at very close ranges quite fast. Draw and shoot just about as fast as a punch.
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Old May 2, 2010, 08:04 AM   #32
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I do both for 25+ years. You need both. Find the balance you like.
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