The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 23, 2010, 07:41 AM   #1
kx592
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 9, 2009
Posts: 642
Weapon traning or Self defense FIRST?

Every thread on here is always about how do I train with my weapon of choice for HD or cc. What about if the situation turns to hand-to-hand for whatever unfortunate reason? Would it be more logical to attend some sort of self defense class and then maybe martial arts and then move to using your firearm proficiently? Just figured I would stir it up in here.
kx592 is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 08:18 AM   #2
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,785
Quote:
Would it be more logical to attend some sort of self defense class and then maybe martial arts and then move to using your firearm proficiently? Just figured I would stir it up in here.
Sure. Nothing wrong with that. But, this is a firearms forum and discussions in this particular forum are generally limited to firearm tactics and training. Otherwise, the mods tend to lock up threads that are non-firearms related. Many of us do have other non-firearms related fighting and self defense training.
Skans is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 08:23 AM   #3
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
Quote:
Would it be more logical to attend some sort of self defense class and then maybe martial arts and then move to using your firearm proficiently?
Two questions spring to mind.

1) Which one is going to enable you to reasonably defend yourself sooner?
2) Where do disabilities (for example I'm recovering from surgery) fit in?

Also, I'm pretty sure that learning to use a firearm IS a "martial art" .
__________________
"The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:13 AM   #4
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,594
It takes many, many years to be proficient at hand-to-hand combat. You are far more likely to be able to defend yourself with a firearm in the near (next 20 years) term.

Look at the stats. Even completely untrained individuals are generally succesfull in defending themselves with a gun.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:50 AM   #5
Krieger9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2009
Location: Howell Michigan
Posts: 130
Hand to Hand

Hand to Hand is one of those things that you should be about 5x better than your opponent to feel comfortible. It's chaos and even a trained fighter can be taken out by a lucky hit.

When you start getting out numbered your chances plummet exponentially. And if you do come out of it, you probably delivered some lethal damage to force that opponent to disengage.

Using a firearm also isn't as easy as it may seem, that training can cover some real ground quickly.
Krieger9 is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:58 AM   #6
psyfly
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 27, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 777
I think they complement each other very well.

After some serious surgery last year and after contemplation of all the hassles that may ensue if I am forced to actually use a firearm, I took a self-defense course specifically designed for health-impaired geezers and I heartily endorse the concept.

Some months subsequently, I and my wife were attacked in the streets of a large city and my training (both kinds) contributed significantly to my confidence that I could handle the situation which I was then able to do without using my CCW.

While I understand PK's point about martial arts mastery, it is relatively easier to learn some things which put you immediately head and shoulders above the average street punk or psychotic homeless person.

It's nice to have a variety of options.

Best,

Will
__________________
Show me the data
psyfly is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 10:51 AM   #7
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
I'm sorry for the long post...

KX,

I'm 24. I'm 5'9", 165lb and about as average as you can get. I also have been in martial arts training since I was 12, and I carry a number of weapons about my person every single day including my Glock 19 and my Karambit blade. I would never dream of carrying anything that I wasn't proficient with.

And as we all know, rule #1 of a gunfight is... Make sure you bring a gun.

In my relevant training, especially that provided in Hapkido, I've trained with a number of weapons including firearms, and it is an incredible eye opener. When training with weapons, it is important to know the role, limitations, and implications of introducing each individual weapon into an engagement, and the firearm is in a class all to itself.

Because if you are in a physical fight with another individual and a firearm is introduced improperly, it immediately stops being a fight between you. Now it's a fight for the gun.

At 21, when I first began carrying my weapon, I was amazed at how much of my formal training that I would readily use if I was unarmed in a fight, I immediately decided I would never attempt with a firearm on, concealed or otherwise. It just goes right out the window. Because as soon as you engage someone while wearing a firearm that is readily accessible, it is then introduced into the engagement, and introducing a firearm into a physical fight has HUGE implications both legally and practically. There is just too much room for error and too many unknowns that could get you or someone else killed. This is why the bulk of my training with OFFENSIVE firearms has been focused on retention, creating and maintaining space between myself and the assailant, and employing my firearm from a number of positions not many people practice from, all while retaining strong ground and not getting knocked out or killed in between. Defensive firearms training (the other guy has the gun) is another subject entirely.

My advice on this subject in particular is that I trained martial arts for over a decade. And I just began learning about and training firearms in those arts in the last 4 years. It takes that long to be physically competant enough in martial arts training to learn how to proficiently react to guns in a fight (yours or theirs). And the first thing we'll tell you in the class is, "If you are in a fight with a gun involved, forget what you see in movies, there's a good chance you're going to be shot. Use it as a LAST resort."

Yes, martial arts are good to train for anyone. Everyone should know how to handle themselves. Martial arts training is great for more than fighting: agility, strength, flexibility, balance, etc...

Almost all martial arts training goes out the window when the hammer cocks.
If you're going to carry and have the propensity to introduce death at the squeeze of a trigger, your time is better suited at a tactical range.

*I'm the Colt .45. Fear no man, any size. Call on me, I will equalize.

Just my $.14 for what it's worth. (about 14 cents?)

~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 11:20 AM   #8
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
I didn't know they were different



Man what a sweet movie.

On topic, I took hand-to-hand training before getting a firearm simply because I couldn't carry on campus. I found that the principles taught in most hand-to-hand martial arts (I take Krav Maga) carry over very nicely into firearm defense. Things like awareness, positioning, leverage, weak points, etc all carry over into firearms. As far as what you should learn FIRST, if I had to chose I'd say martial arts, but if you can carry a gun by all means do that first. No block I know will stop a bullet.

I remember a story of a guy OC'ing (he worked for a body guard company and always had to be armed) into a large box store/mall. The "asset protection" employee came up from behind him, grabbed his strong side wrist with one hand and attempted to take the OC'ers gun from its holster with the other. When asked why he did this the "asset protection" employee said that he didn't want the OC'er to start shooting up the place and so he needed control of the situation. Long story short, the employee ended up unconscious. I believe he (or the company) is being charged with something. The employee failed to disarm the carrier because the carrier had trained for people doing just that. And here is the important part: the carrier wasn't charged with anything because, as the police said, he "never drew his firearm". He was able to deal with the situation in a less lethal way and potentially avoided prosecution. If I find the thread about this I will link it, I can't remember where I saw it.

Last edited by Sefner; April 23, 2010 at 11:26 AM.
Sefner is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 04:51 PM   #9
Old Grump
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 9, 2009
Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in
Posts: 3,144
Solid food or fork first. Both are long term investments in safety and a new life style. Getting a gun is quicker and familiarization is a start but getting proficient is a long term commitment as is getting in fighting shape. Yet a weekend at a self defense seminar will give you the basic tools for a physical confrontation but you won't be proficient. My vote, jump in whole hog in both directions, they are not exclusive skill sets and one will help the other by developing concentration and discipline needed for both shooting and martial arts.
__________________
Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
--Daniel Webster--
Old Grump is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 05:32 PM   #10
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
It takes many, many years to be proficient at hand-to-hand combat. You are far more likely to be able to defend yourself with a firearm in the near (next 20 years) term.
IF you have your gun.... and IF you do not allow the other person to get so close they can rush you before you get your gun out, well then you can defend yourself with a gun. But that is not always possible.

While I pack a Glock or Centennial, I also workout alot at H2H, both for the health benefits and self defense benefits. I'm 5th dan TKD and Krav Maga practitioner. H2H practice is better than sitting in front of the boob tube every night!
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 05:55 PM   #11
kellie
Member
 
Join Date: April 19, 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 15
Why do you have to do one first? Why can't you focus on both equally? I also do Krav Maga, but I took my first firearm safety class right around the same time I took my first Krav Maga class, and for the same basic reason: I want to be able to defend myself. I think both are good skills to have. They compliment each other well, but different situations call for different actions. Things happen when you least expect them to, the more you know, the better.

(Plus self defense classes are good exercise and a whole lot of fun. )
kellie is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 05:57 PM   #12
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,594
Quote:
IF you have your gun.... and IF you do not allow the other person to get so close they can rush you before you get your gun out, well then you can defend yourself with a gun. But that is not always possible.

While I pack a Glock or Centennial, I also workout alot at H2H, both for the health benefits and self defense benefits. I'm 5th dan TKD and Krav Maga practitioner. H2H practice is better than sitting in front of the boob tube every night!

I have no problem with hand to hand. I think such training is highly beneficial in many ways.

My point is, a gun is available and effective NOW. Whereas fighting skills are years, even decades, away before they can be utilized effectively.

Additionally, knowing a little bit about how to use a gun can save your life very easily. Looking at the numerous incidences that occur each year indicate that little to no proficiency in firearms is typically necessary in order to deploy them effectively. If you know how to make it say "BOOM!" then you usually know enough to use it to defend yourself.

H2H is entirely different. Knowing just a little bit can actually make your life WORSE, if you're not smart enough to know that knowing a little is knowing enough to get your arse kicked.

I took a few years of Washin Ryu (sp?), many years ago, I knew plenty of (mostly) guys who had a year or two (or a month or two) of training who thought they were suddenly Chuck Norris. Many a time, I saw one of them come to class after the weekend with bandaged ribs and black eyes.

On the other hand, an untrained monkey who has a loaded gun pointed at the BG has an INSTANT advantage.

If I have to be untrained with my fists or untrained with a gun and need to pick one to use to save my life? The choice is easy.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 06:33 PM   #13
Lee Lapin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2004
Location: SE NC
Posts: 1,238
http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp

Because sometimes your awareness fails.

lpl
=========================

ShivWorks
Extreme Close Quarter Concepts I and II (ECQC I-II)
The ShivWorks Extreme Close Quarter Concepts I & II (ECQC 1&2) course is a 20 hour
block of instruction which focuses on a multi-disciplinary approach to
building functional, combative handgun skills at zero to five feet. The course is
designed to instill core concepts of seamless integration and provide the platform
for aggressive problem solving during a life or death struggle. A heavy emphasis
is placed upon commonality of body mechanics between skill sub-sets, which
means that all combative software is reinforcing. Once the student’s skill sets are
initially ingrained, the participant will be stress inoculated with force on force drills
utilizing man-marking cartridges and protective equipment.


Topics covered include:

Block One

• Diagnostics
• Introduction to the components of the Combative Drawstroke
• Building the pectoral index in live-fire
• Firing throughout the horizontal line of presentation
• Off-hand fending positions
• Default position
• Basic empty hand blows
• Theory of in-fight weapon access
• Grounded basics

Block Two

• Challenging the potential attacker
• Preemptive weapon access
• Muzzle aversion within draw-stroke
• Negotiating the F.U.T.
• ECQ Handgun retention in holster
• ECQ handgun retention out of holster
• Handgun recovery
• Handgun striking


Equipment required
Holster, pistol, two magazines, eye & ear protection, heavy sweatshirt or soft
body armor, mouthpiece and cup, 500 rounds of ammo.
Course cost is $400. This class is not recommended for beginning
shooters and prior documented training or instructor approval is required.
Students should be relatively fit as this is a contact class. Most of the latter half of each day will be spent utilizing man marking cartridges and FIST
helmets, to allow the students to gain confidence in applying their newly acquired
skills against moving aggressive opponents.
__________________
Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order!

Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.
Lee Lapin is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 06:42 PM   #14
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
Sure. Nothing wrong with that. But, this is a firearms forum and discussions in this particular forum are generally limited to firearm tactics and training. Otherwise, the mods tend to lock up threads......
Unarmed fighting skills ARE a firearms related subject, in so far as those skills used to create the space and distance to access the firearm. Or even as an alternative to having to use the firearm. Such skills should include weapon retention.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 06:48 PM   #15
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Another option:
http://www.suarezinternational.com/tech.html
Quote:
Zero To Five Feet - Pistol Gunfighting

This revolutionary class focuses on integrating the pistol into the fight at zero to five feet. This is what some trainers call "The Hole" and their entire perspective is to "Get Out Of The Hole". We don't worry about "getting out of the hole" because the reality of it is that you won't. Instead, we get comfortable in there...we set up a nice cozy camp there and learn to thrive where other men fear to walk. We make the other guy want to get out of the hole he finds himself in as we start to rip his head right off his shoulders. This will be a very thorough study on how to prevail and not get killed at this distance interval. We will do a great deal of technical work to ingrain the correct skills and then work them extensively via force on force exercises. You have never seen training and information like this before.

While I do want to make sure guys are in reasonable condition to handle this, you don't need to be a hard core athlete to do this. We will play hard...but within reason for the attendees we normally have in class.

Some Topics:

* Dealing against the drawn gun. Bad guy pointing in on you. What are all the options? We will look at everything from running away, to drawing and killing him, stabbing him with a knife, to disarming him and shooting him with his own gun.
* Dealing against the drawn knife. Both from "hold up" type situations to actual attacks. You will deal with them with the gun in hand (this one is really cool), and with empty hands, leading into a draw and shots as part of the fight.
* Dealing with a fight in confined areas such as hallways, elevators, phone booths and cars. All empty handed, and with weapons and with one leading to the other. (Props will be used as the range allows)
* Dealing with more than one bad guy. How to position and maneuver to deny them the advantage, as well as how to immediately escalate and take them out.
* The combined use of various tools such as knife and gun, knife and light, light and gun, gun and stick. Not only the how, but the why as well.

These and other topics will make this one of the hottest classes available to civilian operators.
smince is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:21 PM   #16
oldandslow
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2007
Posts: 557
kx, 4/24/10

As others have said, do both empty hand and weapons training. They compliment each other. I also recommend the Shivworks group quoted above- where you learn empty hand and weapons skills from the clinch range to five feet away. Great course, even for us old guys.

best wishes- oldandslow
oldandslow is offline  
Old April 24, 2010, 09:52 AM   #17
AcridSaint
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 407
While I agree that both are important to work on, there is only one that is nearly guaranteed to get you killed if you do it wrong. If you're in a situation where you need a gun, you need to know how to use it, how to hang on to it, and have the proper mindset to use and hang onto it.

If you're in a fisticuffs situation, the stakes may not be as grave. Even if they are grave, not having the training with your weapon will make you a soft target. If you plan to carry a firearm or use one for self defense I think you need to get more than just shooting range familiar with it.
AcridSaint is offline  
Old April 24, 2010, 08:06 PM   #18
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Quote:
Zero To Five Feet - Pistol Gunfighting

This revolutionary class focuses on integrating the pistol into the fight at zero to five feet. This is what some trainers call "The Hole" and their entire perspective is to "Get Out Of The Hole". We don't worry about "getting out of the hole" because the reality of it is that you won't. Instead, we get comfortable in there...we set up a nice cozy camp there and learn to thrive where other men fear to walk...........
Ah Jeez. Well, while some are learning to get "comfortable" amidst multiple assailants and setting up camp, I'll opt for those skills that get me the #%$@ out of there. Being in my mid 60's, I've come to the realization that I'm actually mortal.

Not to say that taking on the whole bunch wouldn't have appealed to me in my younger "invincible" days.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old April 24, 2010, 08:30 PM   #19
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Martial arts and shooting are one in the same.

Training both is very beneficial, as long as you are determined enough to understand and practice the skills you learn.

If it turns to a hand to hand fight you need to get out of there. I have been in fights where things could have turned bad quickly. Your best bet to survive is to stop it from escalating to a fight. If it does and you have to fight back, martial arts skills are helpful but don't guarantee anything.

The idea that having a gun makes self defense easier is very true, you do however have to know when to pull it and how to keep a hold of it. Skills in close quarters combat can help you in this and anything else that involves a physical confrontation. These skills all assist each other.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

Last edited by BlackFeather; April 24, 2010 at 08:38 PM.
BlackFeather is offline  
Old April 24, 2010, 08:50 PM   #20
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
If it turns to a hand to hand fight you need to get out of there.
It could very well be H2H from the start. Or you may have to get him/them off of you to create enough distance to get your gun out.
Quote:
Ah Jeez. Well, while some are learning to get "comfortable" amidst multiple assailants and setting up camp, I'll opt for those skills that get me the #%$@ out of there. Being in my mid 60's, I've come to the realization that I'm actually mortal.
While some of it may be advertising, we actually did learn skills that would help in these situations. And there were a few there your age.
smince is offline  
Old April 25, 2010, 01:13 AM   #21
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Sorry, that's kind of what I meant. You need to get out of that situation to where you have the upper hand. My words no good lately.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old April 25, 2010, 10:10 AM   #22
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Carrying a gun is great, but if the fight starts at conversational distance (which is pretty likely), you're liable to be in bad shape if you don't have the empty hand skills to create your opportunity to deploy the weapon cleanly. Fixating on drawing the gun is a great way to get your butt kicked when you're in a fight at "bad breath range."

Then there's also the fact that deadly force is not always justified...empty hand skills can give you the tools you need to handle situations where you don't need to shoot someone.
And no, you don't have to train for "years and years" to develop "useable" skills. Join an MMA or boxing gym, study some Krav Maga or some combatives (e.g. Kelly McCann's material or similar). It doesn't take very long to become "functional" if you aren't wasting your time with styles that don't address realistic threats.

Short answer is that you're not really prepared if you don't possess some solid skills in the empty hand combat realm.
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old April 25, 2010, 12:26 PM   #23
ranburr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 1,278
A 12 yr old gang banger with a .38 beats the toughest ninja man in every battle.
__________________
ranburr
"There are no stupid questions, just stupid people asking questions".
ranburr is offline  
Old April 25, 2010, 03:09 PM   #24
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenpoTex
if you aren't wasting your time with styles that don't address realistic threats.
Ouch...
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old April 25, 2010, 09:23 PM   #25
Deaf Smith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2000
Location: Texican!
Posts: 3,235
Quote:
A 12 yr old gang banger with a .38 beats the toughest ninja man in every battle.
Only on TV.
__________________
"The government has confiscated all of our rights and is selling them back to us in the form of permits."
Deaf Smith is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13908 seconds with 7 queries