The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old April 20, 2010, 01:52 PM   #26
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
We had an incident here in Athens several years ago that almost resulted in an officer's death. She was working security at a Kroger grocery store when she was attacked by a mentally deranged man. Some of the customers did nothing but others tried to help. The attacker didn't stop until the store manager grabbed him from behind. The officer's femoral artery was cut in the attack and she almost died. http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/...71213035.shtml I probably would have tried to shoot the man if I'd been there but I don't know.

Last edited by 2damnold4this; April 20, 2010 at 01:59 PM.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 02:36 PM   #27
JohnH1963
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2008
Posts: 416
All you have to do is ask yourself the following question...

Is pulling my gun worth getting...

- killed?
- seriously wounded?
- imprisoned for at least 8 years...possibly more?
- sued in a civil court for millions of dollars?
- another innocent person killed or wounded?
- losing your job?
- losing your friends and family?

I guess the list could go on and on, but if after you go through that list in your head and all seems acceptable then its probably a situation where you want to pull your pistol.

Keep in mind that the officer is the one who got themselves into the situation. The officer is paid, trained and experienced to do what he is doing, therefore, he should know better. If he gets wounded or killed, then its not on you. Its on him and the department.

The best thing to do would be to observe at a distance in a covered position and should you see anything untoward then call 911...the officer has a radio and they will call him. However, observing law enforcement activity can be dangerous. What if the criminals see you and then start to engage you?

Now lets say the officer is physically struggling with the 3 guys...you all of a sudden run in and try to help the officer. The officer then believes you might be with the 3 guys or an officer pulling up to the scene believes you might be with the 3 guys...then you get shot or beaten...

Last edited by JohnH1963; April 20, 2010 at 02:41 PM.
JohnH1963 is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 02:39 PM   #28
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 7,694
Quote:
I probably would have tried to shoot the man if I'd been there but I don't know.
You'd have to be right on top of the guy to shoot him in that situation. Too many folks kicking him and trying to help the Officer to take a shot from any distance at all.

That's the thing - no civilian that I know is really well trained enough to take a shot at any distance with a conceal carry weapon when innocent bystanders are that close to the bad guy and 3rd party victim. Brute force, club, pepper spray, even a stun-gun would be useful....but not a small handgun, unless at point blank range.
Skans is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 02:49 PM   #29
2damnold4this
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
You'd have to be right on top of the guy to shoot him in that situation. Too many folks kicking him and trying to help the Officer to take a shot from any distance at all.
Yep. Folks were trying to kick the man off the officer while he slashed at them and her and other innocents were around the store on a busy day. If you're right on the guy, you have to worry that the bullet might penetrate and hit the officer or someone else. I don't know if it would have been possible but I probably would have tried.
2damnold4this is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 03:21 PM   #30
johns7022
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2010
Posts: 94
A state LEO told me that he didn't carry off duty, too much liability, and that getting invovled in a fight for someone else was too risky....he would standby with a cell phone report it in...
johns7022 is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 03:58 PM   #31
JonnyP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 16, 2009
Posts: 195
I talked with my brother (a deputy sheriff) about this. He said in most cases, especially in which an officer is getting his butt kicked, said officer would welcome the help provided you made your intentions known from the start. I also checked an LEO forum in which many officers wrote in to say basically the same thing. But in most cases it's best to:

1. Call 911 or get on the officer's car radio and ask for help.
2. Say to the officer LOUDLY, "Officer, I'm here to help if you need me."

And not necessarily in that order.

If the officer waves you off, fine. But in every case mentioned in the LEO forum I saw, the helper received a big thank you when it was all over.

I'd like to think I'd be willing to help in such a situation, but if deadly force became involved, the advantage would have to be on my side for sure. Discretion, a cool head, a a whole lot of common sense, as always, is a must.
JonnyP is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 05:15 PM   #32
(BH)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2009
Location: East TN
Posts: 638
All of the stuff mentioned so far has been useful info IF there's a life or death situation (keep in mind the OP stated that this was a case of expired tags).

I mean, if you want to sit around and watch simple traffic violations unfold just in case all hell breaks loose, go for it. I just don't see why there would be any reason to do so. Seems like a monumental waste of time to me, and definitely no cause for waiting around with a gun in hand.
__________________


It matters not how a man dies, but how he lives. The act of dying is not of importance, it lasts so short a time.
-Samuel Johnson
(BH) is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 05:26 PM   #33
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
Well from an old policemans point of view...

If you think the cop is in trouble... He's probably in trouble. Especially if you overhear something he didnt. If your in doubt I'd rather you err on the side of safety. Dial 911. You can do that officer more good by calling 911 than getting personally involved.

If you call 911, and the whole thing go's to crap... he may not have a chance to call for help. Even if he does... Help will be that much closer.

If you call 911 and stay on the phone... most likely the dispatcher will contact the officer and inform him of your concerns. He will be alerted and can re-evaluate his situation with the added information he gets from you via his dispatcher.

If you call 911 and it turns out to be a routine, nothing traffic stop what harm is done? I cant concieve of an officer who would take offence to a citizen being concerned about his well being.

It's possible that in this scenario the Officer also percieved danger in the posturing, and positioning of the subjects friends, and decided to de-escalate the situation by issuing a warning.

I hope this posting brings a little understanding to the O/P.

Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 09:35 PM   #34
Kjackson35
Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2010
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
Posts: 35
Wait...

I would wait... wait... and wait some more. I definitely wouldn't get involved unless the situation went to straight crap, as in the officer is pinned down by gunfire. It sounds like in this situation, had the other guys approached the officer, he would have given them a good butt chewing and they would have backed out of the situation, leaving him alone in what he was doing.
Kjackson35 is offline  
Old April 20, 2010, 11:10 PM   #35
cracked91
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 2009
Posts: 385
The police (most at least) are very well trained, and can hold their own, even against larger groups of people. If they physically attacked him unarmed, or even with some melee weapon, I would call 911 even though he probably already called for backup. If he is shot, stabbed several times, or some other horrible thing, then you have to make your own choice.

My .02 cents: As long as the cop is on his feet, keep your gun in your holster. If he is fighting, he is going to adrenaline pumped and possibly disoriented. If your pull your gun at this time, even with good intentions, there is going to be a good chance your going to get yourself shot.

If he is knocked down or knocked out and they are trying to take his sidearm I would step in. Because at that point there would be a good chance he would be killed if nothing was done.
cracked91 is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:14 AM   #36
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,557
Glenn Dee got on his keyboard first, . . . and he did a great job.

Given that I used to be out and about (on the job) at odd hours, I could easily have been in this type situation.

I would have backed out of my space, moved around in the station until I had a perfectly clear view of the whole scene through my front windshield, . . . but at a comfortable distance away from the "action", . . . layed my 1911 in my lap, . . . got out my cell, . . . put it in 911 mode, . . . and acted as though I were filling out a trip ticket or something, . . . inside my vehicle with the engine running.

The first hint of trouble for the officer, . . . 911 would be called, . . . and from there I would make whatever decision was necessary. Leaving the engine running allows the car to be used for a weapon, blocker, whatever, . . . or to escape if it gets really hairy.

Moving from a place between the officer and the other two, removes me from being in any crossfire, . . . plus gives me the panoramic view of everyone.

I have done this several times when I have noticed what looks like a possibly ugly situation developing. Drove to a corner, . . . observed, . . . when nothing happend, . . . went on my way, . . . thankful.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 11:24 AM   #37
TSR80
Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2010
Posts: 65
When you see a cop on the ground getting stomped by all means, "step in", otherwise stay OUT of the way, for YOUR safety and HIS/HER safety.

They aren't the lone ranger, they have an entire department supporting them and while police are injured while performing their duties on occasion it certainly isn't the norm, otherwise they would drive tanks instead of Crown Vics and carry BARs instead of pea-shooters.
TSR80 is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 11:32 AM   #38
NWCP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2006
Posts: 1,772
You may have been viewed as the real threat by drawing your own weapon. The resulting incident would have involved you and the cop, not the kid with expired tags and his friends. He would have already have called in the stop as a possible traffic violation. No use second guessing everyone and ending up getting shot. Had he come under attack it would be a different situation and still not an easy call. JHMO
NWCP is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 02:16 PM   #39
7mmWSM
Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2009
Posts: 32
Case Study

My cousin is a hero to our local law enforcement officers because he intervened when one of the officers, who confronted a shoplifter in a grocery store parking lot, was down on the ground getting the h*** beat out of him and my cousin came up and gave the shoplifter a lights out punch. In answer to the OP, I am the son of a career county sheriffs deputy and my son-in-law is a state trooper and I know they would appreciate the help if needed. A person just needs to be sure that help is indeed needed and he doesn't create a bigger problem. All situations are different.
7mmWSM is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 02:46 PM   #40
pacerdude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 586
Missouri Shooter, not to be confrontational, but if they had been older would you have been suspicious of them?

As a 20 something year old myself, I hope people don't go for their guns when they see me purchasing some beer....

From my reading of the OP, the guys did nothing threatening, sounds like they were just waiting for their buddy. It would have been more suspicious if the other two had booked it to their vehicle and drove off.
__________________
Let not a man guard his dignity, but let his dignity guard him. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
pacerdude is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 04:20 PM   #41
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
I had a very similar situation happen to me. I was walking a foot post in the south Bronx. I noticed a volkswagon bus occuped several times in the parking lot of a closed business... on a semi deserted street. I notified central and requested a plate check, walked over and investigated. Everything seemed fine... A van full of day labor guys. The driver had ID, and they were all very pleasent. I walked around to the passenger side to look in. Where I saw one of them shooting up. (drugs) The side door opened and they were all out and all over me in a flash... The only thing they said and I understood was something about "La Pistola". I knew if they got my gun I was a dead man. So I rolled over and lay on top of my gun, holding it with both hands and took a stomping. After what seemed like an eternity the most beautiful sound ever... Police sirens... The mutts decided that was agood time to make themselves scarce. One guy had to get in one last kick and I was able to hold on to his ankle until the cavelry arrived. I was taken to the hospital... so was he.

Now... what saved me? An elderly gentleman who was driving by saw what was happening... went and found a working pay phone... Called in for help... Then came back to see that I was alright. That civilian I believe saved my life that day.

Weather you CCW or not... A telephone is usually the best way to help any police officer. I have been assisted by an armed citizen... but that was a very different situation.

Glenn Dee.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:22 PM   #42
ActivShootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 1,040
If the officer was taking a beating I would help, if not I would do as others have stated and be a good witness. That Motorola on his belt is a whole lot faster than your cell phone.
ActivShootr is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:25 PM   #43
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
oh boy!
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:33 PM   #44
Pbearperry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2008
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 283
All you have to do is ask the cop if he could use any assistance.You don't have to come out of the car like a Junior G man.If he wants help he will tell you what to do.Remember folks,cops are out there trying to keep a lid on things and a hurt cop will still get paid if hes laid up or his family will get paid if hes killed.Those two occurrences are not cost effective for the tax payer.Sometimes just letting the moron know that the cop is now not alone may stop many things from happening.
Pbearperry is offline  
Old April 21, 2010, 08:49 PM   #45
ActivShootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 1,040
So if a cop is lying on the ground with multiple asailants beating him. Do I casually walk up and say "Pardon me officer, could you use some assistance?" or do I grab the first guy not in a uniform and stop him from doing any further damage? Or do I just stand there?

What would you want me to do if you were in the officer's shoes?
ActivShootr is offline  
Old April 22, 2010, 08:53 AM   #46
TSR80
Member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2010
Posts: 65
ActivShootr I would hope if you saw an officer on the ground getting stomped you would pick the BG closest to you and kick his teeth in and move on to the next one. I don't think this needs explaining though.
__________________
TSR80 - Firmly seated in reality.

Basing conclusions on emotions is like wiping before you poop, it doesn't make any damn sense.
TSR80 is offline  
Old April 22, 2010, 12:38 PM   #47
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
Next up, the companion thread 'What would make someone want to be a cop?' With visions like that of a day on the job where you're grappling for your gun/life and even the good guys are standing there having second thoughts about helping out...time for a carrer change. The word is that cops are underpaid so unless that's a lie, what the heck is it? Lofty ideals? the ego boost from the power? I admit I don't get it.

I don't know if I would help or not. Depends on the exact circumstances and how the spirit moved me.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old April 22, 2010, 04:05 PM   #48
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
Being a policeman (cop) is not for everyone. If you go into it expecting to get rich, famous, or unscathed... Think again. Yes some cops get rich... But not from honest police work. Yes some cops get famous... But that comes with a price, and is very unlikely. Some cops do retire without ever having an IOD. But again thats unlikely.

Most policemen (women)... do so out of a sense of duty, honor, and the personal need to make a real difference.

Besides... who wouldnt want to play cops n robbers.... with real guns.

Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:13 AM   #49
ActivShootr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2007
Posts: 1,040
This thread has done a 10/10 belly flop.
ActivShootr is offline  
Old April 23, 2010, 09:55 AM   #50
7mmWSM
Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2009
Posts: 32
Glen Dee

Thanks for your service. You have my utmost respect. As I stated in a previous post, my now deceased father was a career police officer and my son-in-law is currently a Michigan State Trooper. The risk/reward factors are very high in this honorable occupation and you are so correct when you state that it is not for everyone. I started out in college for a degree in law enforcement, got married and had children so I went to work and never finished my schooling. When I was in my early thirties I joined our city police reserve department which involved some training and riding with a full time officer one or two nights a week. I quickly learned that I was not police officer material. It takes a very special person to be a successful law enforcement officer and my respect for them really grew in the seven years I served on the reserve department. I guess that I understand some of the reluctance by some to help an officer in need but that will never be me, even at the cost of possible risk to myself. Again, Thanks for what you do and stay safe.
7mmWSM is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14576 seconds with 7 queries