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Old April 16, 2010, 03:43 PM   #1
hightower
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curious on your opinion of a situation

a couple friends of mine got mugged recently. the situation went down like this. two guys walking down the street, car pulls up and 3 guys hop out. one has a hand gun small caliber they mentioned it didn't even look real. the two others had a pipe and some brass knuckles respectively. They say give up you stuff or your getting shot. One friend smarts off a little and keeps walking, the other starts unloading his pockets. The guy walking off gets chased down and smacked a couple times with the pipe. Only one chipped tooth and a hole in the lip, he got lucky could have been a lot worse. My friends aren't aggressive in anyway shape or form. the guys basically rolled up on them in a car and hopped out right in front of them, which is obviously is a big red flag but doesn't leave much time for a retreat. It got me thinking because I normally carry something with less than ten rounds and commonly a snub 38. what would be the best plan out of there besides giving up the 4 dollars i have in my wallet
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Old April 16, 2010, 03:59 PM   #2
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Hightower,
I carry my money on a clip. It's so I can throw the money clip down, off to the side or up in order to distract the B.G's long enough to either defend or make a hasty exit. The distraction is what's needed. If I'm armed they are dead otherwise I'm out of there. Been shot once because I hesitated. Never again.
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Old April 16, 2010, 04:18 PM   #3
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mygila i always liked the idea tossing a the wallet away to gain some time. the thing that troubles me about the whole situation is there are 3 guys but 1 gun. if/when i decide its going to get more serious than just a wallet, besides the obvious MOVE and shoot. what would the plan of defending be? In my mind, the guy with the gun is priority #1. the thing i worry is 5 .38 slugs are probably not going to stop the guy as quick as i can hope for. And now i have 20 oz club against a guy with a pipe and another with some knucks. i will bet anything i can't get a speed loader out of my pocket and in my gun quick enough to save my bacon. and the light just went on i'm going gun shoping
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Old April 16, 2010, 04:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hightower
there are 3 guys but 1 gun. if/when i decide its going to get more serious than just a wallet
It really can't get much more serious that someone pointing a firearm at you threatening your life. Given the opportunity you just gotta draw, start firing and see if they have the balls to stand there. They won't.
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Old April 16, 2010, 04:41 PM   #5
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When the gun fire starts the others are going to haul ass!
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Old April 16, 2010, 05:07 PM   #6
hightower
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nefprotector: When the gun fire starts the others are going to haul ass!
i guess i've always put myself in the muggers shoes. If one of my buddy's get shot there is no way i'm going to let him lay there and bleed out while i turn tail. But that's just my morals....the same ones that keep me from robbing people in the first place

Last edited by hightower; April 16, 2010 at 05:23 PM.
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Old April 16, 2010, 05:18 PM   #7
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i guess i've always put myself in the muggers shoes. If one of my buddy's get shot there is no way i'm going to let him lay there and bleed out while i turn tail.
Um, its been my experience that aint the case with this type of person. The'res not a lot of loyalty with street thugs.

Not like they are soldiers taking care of their comrad in arms.

In my 20 years as a street cop, I discovered, with that lot of individuals, its WHEN THE POOP HITS THE FAN, ITS EVERYMAN FOR HIMSELF.
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Old April 16, 2010, 07:44 PM   #8
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It got me thinking because I normally carry something with less than ten rounds and commonly a snub 38. what would be the best plan out of there besides giving up the 4 dollars i have in my wallet
First off, you are doughting yourself and your weapon.
When you took your concealed carry class you must have missed the Mindset slide.
Then the 1st one to score a good hit is usually going to win the encounter, again mindset.
Those birt-dags would have been tripping all over their knickers trying to put distance between you and them when that revolver made its slow and smooth appearance.
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Old April 16, 2010, 08:15 PM   #9
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Gbro seems to have paid attention. "Man fights first with his mind, then with his weapons." The idea that someone "may be willing to harm me" or perhaps "wants to kill me", is most difficult to comprehend for those of us raised to expect the best in people, until it is right in our face. It is essential to our surrvial to "get it". Once understood, practice the "what if's" along with presentation in dryfire practice. Solid pair on the primary threat, assess, repond accordingly. You've got 3 left before you need to reload. Make them present the threat target as you carefully back away. "I WILL WIN" is the mindset.
No one ever said that it's going to be easy.
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Old April 16, 2010, 09:14 PM   #10
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its amazing how some of our forum guests really don't understand the criminal mind and what makes the honor or nonhonor of these so called gansters.

when doing any kind of hit/job/robbery/what ever, it is commonly known to the thugs that if something pops off, chase by cops, shooting by others or cops, tables drastically turn, blood shed, etc, that everyone splits up in every direction for making it more dificult to get caught or all round up as a group, and for all to meet up in usually a predetermined spot, could be one of their houses or a friends house It is known almost an unwritten understanding that if you go in to a job/robbery etc, you are going in at your own risk, you take responsibility for yourself and you have no one to blame if you get shot hurt or killed. in the streets you have no friends, I am telling you, no friends at all. etc.

although these dudes may think to act like soldiers and claim to be "Troops" they are far from it in both skill set with weapons, honor in loyalty, etc.
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Old April 16, 2010, 09:35 PM   #11
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One thing that always weighs on me is that when you use deadly force and kill a thug....

That someone may invoke a blood feud against me or my family.

Maybe I am a bit paranoid.
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Old April 16, 2010, 09:43 PM   #12
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Your walking down the street..car jerks to a stop, guys get out...your hand is on your gun...you see a guy with a gun, you draw on him, if he brings it up...you drop him....then point to the other guys, who will probably run off..

It's just that simple.
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Old April 16, 2010, 09:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
One thing that always weighs on me is that when you use deadly force and kill a thug....
That someone may invoke a blood feud against me or my family.
If thug is in situation that appears to threaten me or mine with deadly force, then I will gladly risk retribution.

I spent a lot of years working in a building where everybody carried a gun, mostly 24/7. I never noticed a lot of group bonding in the unarmed guys who passed through on a regular basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johns7022
It's just that simple.
What if bad guy # 2 drags out a 12 gauge instead of running?
'It' is never as simple as we wish. If you HAVE TO draw, then immediate use of deadly force is warranted. Waiting for the BG to bring his weapon to bear can cause a lot of grief.

Last edited by bobelk99; April 16, 2010 at 09:51 PM.
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Old April 16, 2010, 09:49 PM   #14
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I carry a fake wallet on the side where I carry a concealed pistol, if I'm carrying.

If I'm not carrying, I'll toss him my fake wallet. If I'm carrying, I'll toss him my fake wallet and draw.

A cheap wallet with the fake credit cards you get in the mail can be handy.
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Old April 16, 2010, 10:08 PM   #15
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Sometimes I chuckle. Allow me to turn this around a little. You are part of a three man team. Your mission to to confront two foreign agents. Search them and retrieve important documents they are said to have. How are you going to proceed, without serious threat to injury, death, or failure ? You going to fall for a 'Dummy document' drop ? Are you going to shoot anyone who gestures toward you, as though they have a weapon (remember, you gun is already out) ? They each hand you a document. Are you going to search them for more, while the guy with the gun covers them ? I figure every badguy out there that reads these posts is aware of the 'Fake wallet drop'.

How are you going to pull this off with a minimum of problems cropping up ? Maybe the three badguys have a plan also. Unless your hand is on your gun when the car pulls to a stop, I figure you are already behind the curve.
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Old April 16, 2010, 10:28 PM   #16
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I figure you are already behind the curve.
You are always going to be behind the curve(as you say) to some degree in every situation if you are a civilian with a carry permit. You are in defensive mode only.
Quote:
One thing that always weighs on me is that when you use deadly force and kill a thug....
That someone may invoke a blood feud against me or my family.
This is real life here,
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Old April 16, 2010, 10:33 PM   #17
WhyteP38
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I figure every badguy out there that reads these posts is aware of the 'Fake wallet drop'.
I suspect you are giving too much credit to said bad guys.

First, the team and agents you are talking about should be much better educated in general and on such operations in particular than your average mugger. Thus, the comparison is apples to orangutans.

Second, how many bad guys out there are reading posts in forums like this? I suspect not many.

Third, how many bad guys who are reading such posts am I likely to encounter? I suspect a significantly smaller group (or more likely, none).

Fourth, how many muggers are going to grab your wallet and rifle through it while you stand there? And, most likely, stand there in the dark where the lighting is bad, making it perfect for an ambush but not so great for looking through a wallet?

Sometimes, I chuckle too. I have a relative who is an investigator for the public defenders. From his stories and my reading of the literature, the overwhelming majority of thugs are not possessed with strong intellects and superior capacities to plan ahead. They tend to be borderline in their mental functioning and opportunists who want to get in, get out quickly. That is one reason why the news is filled with thugs who do stupid things or do smash and grabs that net them $20.

Granting them anything near the capabilities of a three-man ops team chasing down foreign agents makes me chuckle.
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Old April 17, 2010, 01:06 AM   #18
hightower
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http://www.kxly.com/spokanenews/23130546/detail.html

that's a link to the news story. Now to clarify a little, i had done a large amount of contemplating when i began carrying, am i willing to use my all weapons to go home every night? I came to a very resounding yes, tooth and nail, but if and only if needed. I may have come across passive myself, only because as we all know google can find all kind of things and i don't need to go beating my chest on an internet forum to corroborate premeditation for a da. Also i read a lot about in the effectiveness of handgun calibers on attacks, 38 special being on the lower end of the spectrum i thought i would raise the question how to handle something like this, assuming the worst. i.e. guy with gun keeps fighting even after absorbing 3-5 rounds and the other two do as well. whats that motto, prepare for the worst but hope for the best.

i'd be willing to bet a whole dime that the odds you'll ever fire your weapon in self defense is even less than the probability of a thug fighting instead them turning tail. But yet we all carry a weapon

Am i going to stop carrying my snub probably not, I have a fair variety of carry guns but not as many holsters that work well for me and the guns. With summer coming the snub is the most concealable. do i have any doubts in my ability, or equipment, no, i feel its a very good compromise between prepared and practical.

So back to the topic, i have my plan on handling the situation, but every situation is different and will never unfold the same. I was just hoping for some brainstorming or possibly similar encounters and how they were handled. hopefully none of us will ever have to make these decisions in real life. But i'll bet most of you pick out more than one escape route when you sit down at a restaurant. Assuming the thugs will turn tail when lead flies is just like saying, i'll just shot my way out the front door no matter what goes down.

Last edited by hightower; April 17, 2010 at 01:13 AM.
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Old April 17, 2010, 06:20 AM   #19
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I think your friend ignoring them made them feel like they were being dissed and that set off his assault. Your friend not being armed and confronted with lethal force was foolish and it could have cost his life. I carry a 9mm in hi-cap in summer and a 40 in the winter. I also carry no more than $20.00 cash and keep my credit card in a small inside the pants pocket.

I avoid going out late at night if at all possible, some people have no choice due to their jobs or other needs. I think in this case they would have been smart to just give up their possessions, these can be replaced, life cannot. Sadly even that is no guarantee one will not be harmed or even murdered.

One was wearing an FBI shirt, was one of your friends delinquent on his tax's, I hear the new administration is going to get tough on delinquent citizens. I am glad it didn't turn out any worse. Maybe they should consider taking a cab in the future when having to travel late at night even if it is 4 blocks. A lot can happen in 1 block let alone 4.
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Old April 17, 2010, 08:21 AM   #20
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Okay, the situation is that you are there and that’s it. Should have taken a cab, should not have been out late in a bad area, etc., doesn’t cut it now. You’re there.

In the case of your friends, had I been in a similar situation I would hand over whatever they wanted and no argument.

However, you ask for opinions for your own preparedness.

Even though I carry I would hand over my wallet and any other valuables they wanted, except my gun—if I had to pull it out of my pocket it would be immediately put to the use I bought it for.

I no longer have “keep sake” pictures in my wallet. I can cancel credit cards and get new ones. I can get replacement license cards. I wear a Wal-Mart watch. If they take my keys I can change house locks and my car is insured.

However, if I sense they also intend me harm all that goes away. Whatever happens then isn’t going to be fun for me or them. I carry a five shot 38 Special loaded with +P unless I’m wearing a jacket when I carry a five shot .357. I figure if I get into a fight needing more than that I’m in deep doo and even with a 50 round auto I can’t take them all out before I get hurt and that’s just the way it is.

Sometimes the bull loses and sometime the bull wins.
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Old April 17, 2010, 08:26 AM   #21
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In the situation the OP described, if 3 guys roll-up in a car, get out, and demand your wallet, if you are unarmed you are best served to give up your wallet. Unlike movies, books, and TV, 3 armed men against 2 unarmed men is likely a losing equation for the 2 unarmed men. Even if the gun was fake, the pipe, the brass knuckles, and the manpower advantage were not.

If you don't give up your wallet, you will be beaten because to get what they want, they must beat you. Once you are on the ground, you are at the mercy of people who have demonstrated that they have none. If you do give up your wallet, you may still be beaten, but you might not. Also, once they get what they want, the incentive for them is more to get away than to stomp your face in. I suspect they would probably take a few whacks on you to prove they out-power you and then drive off. But suffering a few whacks is far less damaging than getting beaten into submission. And you'll lose your wallet anyway.

If you are armed, then it all becomes a judgment call with too many variables to address properly. The key consideration is how best to get home alive. If in your judgment, the best way is to give up your wallet, give it up. But if you believe you must fight to survive, fight like hell. At that point, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

As for bad guys running off at the sight of a gun or a first shot fired, I would not count on it. If they are armed with guns, there's a good chance they'll draw and fire, and probably wildly.

Case in point: A few years back, there was a murder at a Red Carpet Inn in Augusta, GA. Two groups of drug dealers were in a room dealing with each other. A guy in the first group had a grudge against a guy in the second group and shot him point blank with a revolver. At that point, another guy in the first group pulled a 9mm and blazed away, and another guy in the second group pulled a .380 and blazed back. The first group then ran out, as did the second group.

The only guy killed was the one who was shot point blank. No one else was even hit. 6 living guys in a motel room, two semi-autos blazing away, and none of them were hit.

I am not saying you should expect every bullet to miss in a gunfight. What I am saying is that when the adrenalin gets pumping, accuracy goes to hell. That applies to you and the thugs. It's something to bear in mind in your planning and your training, in addition to what gun you choose to carry.
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Old April 17, 2010, 02:37 PM   #22
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First off, you will DRAW in this scenario when you see a gun, and if a gun comes up, you shoot, another gun comes up you shoot..

If we are on a gun forum talking about how to 'fake out' a mugger with dummy wallets and such, when you are all packing, then I suggest, you go home, put on some fresh panties and watch Oprah instead of walkin the streets at night.

Why come here to a gun forum and talk about 'not carrying'...if your not carrying, ....ok then then f$#cking run....that's your option...not to stand there and let the bad guys treat you like victims...and remember you can carry an ASP, taser, pepper spray...all sorts of options....

Honestly, you can buy a .22 for less then $200...I would have no problem putting 12 rounds into someone with a .22 that drew on me...
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Old April 17, 2010, 05:09 PM   #23
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First off, you will DRAW in this scenario when you see a gun, and if a gun comes up, you shoot, another gun comes up you shoot..
If the first moment you see a gun is when someone already has it pointed at you - which is how the OP's post seemed to describe what happened to his friends - it will be difficult to draw your piece before he pulls his trigger. Also, since he will have the drop on you and probably be under far less stress than you, it's likely that he will be more accurate than you. Assuming you are carrying concealed rather than openly, you'll have to draw from concealment, acquire the target, and fire, all while under stress. The BG has already drawn and he's already acquired the target (you). I think he wins that particular race.

In that particular scenario, I'd rather give him my wallet. Even if I believe he intends to kill me anyway, at least when he's looking at the wallet he is momentarily distracted. It's not much of a benefit, but I'll take any benefit I can get.
Quote:
Why come here to a gun forum and talk about 'not carrying'.
Maybe because the OP's post talked about his unarmed friends, and it's natural to discuss his entire post.
Quote:
..if your not carrying, ....ok then then f$#cking run...
So the BG with the drawn gun and acquired target can shoot you in the back because you value your ego or your credit cards or your $50 in cash more than your life?

If that works for you, go for it.
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Old April 17, 2010, 06:03 PM   #24
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This is real life here,
Lance
Thanks for the link. I wondered about vendettas. But better to be alive and having to watch your back than be dead and laying on your back.
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Old April 17, 2010, 08:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whyteP38
If that works for you, go for it.
Your last post (# 23) in the thread was true to life. Thanks for taking time to share those thoughts.

No disrespect intended to any poster here, but the world seems to be overrun with individuals who bought a gun, went to a basic or CCW class, and now carry, even thought they have no real experience in combative encounters or firearms. I believe in many cases they are actually increasing the likelihood of personal harm, by being willing to draw a firearm in situations where they have little or no hope of prevailing.

I realize I am making an opening for flame by the above comments. In no way are my comments intended to be argumentative.
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