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Old December 4, 2009, 04:16 PM   #1
Glenn E. Meyer
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Colorado Campus and CCW

Quote:
December 04, 2009, Chronicle of Higher Ed.

Colorado State U. Board Approves Ban on Concealed Weapons

Colorado State University's Board of Governors voted unanimously today to ban concealed weapons on the system's three campuses, following the practice of nearly every other college in the country but defying the wishes of the university's Student Senate, which opposed the ban, according to The Denver Post. The board, which cited the views of the university's public-safety officials and the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement.
------- It seems to me that the drive for CCW on campus is a very difficult row to hoe. One can attribute it to antigun bias and rant about that but I think it is more complex (being in the business). IMHO, the biggest stumbling block even with progun folks is that unfortunately the student population of classic on campus residents (even if 21) are not seen as emotionally stable as the off campus more mature CCW population. Guns in the dorms or frat houses are seen as risk factor due to the stew of hormones and substance abuse.

The Chronicle just ran a series about repeated arsons in dorms from the delightful young men who live there. There was one of a frat house (remember our frat house thread) where the boys went out and shot up stuff for fun. That's what folks think of when one proposes adding guns to the mix.

The residential student population is seen by many as a peculiar risk group and that interacts with antigun bias to sink such attempts. Now, some young might now rant at me for my evaluation (which would prove the point of emotional instability). The neuroscience suggests this is the case.

One can argue that young folks use guns in the military but they are tightly supervised and socialized.

Not to start a discussion of this but to post an analogy. It's like the gay marriage issue. You have folks who see this as a basic rights issue but it gets turned down again and again. Just happened in the NY state Senate.

There is an emotional block that stiffles the idea (I don't care if you agree or not on it on the issue - I'm talking about the process).

People decide on a quick emotional view most of the time and student with guns just elicits an automatic NO. Rational presentations have little effect.

One might argue for faculty and staff (self-serving on my part) but that runs into antigun bias and also the great private property debate for schools like mine. Also, some folks on campus aren't down with untrained folks (just with a CCW permit) proclaiming they will step up in a rampage. The fear of an innocent getting shot overwhelms the possible good of stopping a rampage. Studies show this is a factor - risks to innocents even to do good are not that acceptable. Rampage rationales are seen as different from stopping personal muggings. You don't want untrained folks in a fire fight of some intensity. That's a factor in the debate.

Sigh.
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Old December 4, 2009, 04:22 PM   #2
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I'm sad to hear of the change. I thought the student elected representatives would have some say in the decision. I guess not.

I tried to get my school president at Front Range CC to change weapons ban. He gave me the run around, claimed he thought it was a good idea but couldn't do a thing about it. He did tell me he would have no way of knowing if a student had a weapon with them or not. I almost thought he was telling me to break the rules.

Sad to say but CSU has now become an easier target for those intending evil.
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Old December 4, 2009, 04:59 PM   #3
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Whatever the idea behind these measures, in the end it is actually a measure to protect dangerous criminals from the public. Shows how low their esteem for your life is, or that perhaps they see no differentiation between the "innocent masses" and the "criminal element" as they are all beneath the "ruling classes".
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Old December 4, 2009, 06:52 PM   #4
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Dang, I hate negative progress!

I definitely agree with the emotional argument bit. People's perceptions about CC on campus are usually neutral to negative. Unfortunately, very few people are willing to re-examine their initial reaction when presented with facts and statistics. I hate that, considering I love to argue with facts and statistics!

How do you win a debate with people operating on prejudice, stereotypes, and emotion?
The only half-way sound reason I can see for such a policy is to try to limit liability to the school.

Last edited by raimius; December 4, 2009 at 07:19 PM.
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Old December 4, 2009, 08:13 PM   #5
Al Norris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raimius
How do you win a debate with people operating on prejudice, stereotypes, and emotion?
You can't, but.... Give places like Utah a few years, and you can actually start using a logical process to counter the emotion. As it now stands, it is simply too new an idea.
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Old December 5, 2009, 12:38 PM   #6
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If I read it right, this change is just an administrative ruling right?

Does it effect non-students/faculty?

Here in Virginia the public colleges can ban students & faculty from carrying, but there's no law against it. If you're caught, you're expelled, fired, etc. (The exemption is VCU where it is illegal to carry)

So at Virginia Tech, anyone who isn't a Student or Staff of Virginia Tech can carry there with a valid permit, including Students or Staff from another College.

I was just curious if the situation was the same at Colorado State?
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Old December 14, 2009, 01:49 PM   #7
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I cannot say I'm well verses in the exact details of the CSU ban. I would imagine, since they cannot make laws up there, the only thing they can do to a non-student/employee, would be to have their security escort you off the premesis.

I cannot imagine they could call the police, there is no law being broken. But I'm not a law expert, certainly do not take my word for it.
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Old December 14, 2009, 01:56 PM   #8
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I really hate that we can't carry at GSU. A girl got murdered a week ago about 200ft from where I sleep (well used to, I'm on break now)... this being the day after someone walked into our apartment and took my roommate's laptop, an iPod, video game, and empty video game case (my fault for not locking the door). Now I'm helping my roommate and a few friends buy their first HD guns. Fear buying? Probably. Unjustified? Not in our minds.
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Old December 14, 2009, 02:57 PM   #9
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Glenn's post is completely correct. Here in Michigan we are undergoing this same debate and the talking points are just as he describes them. There are a few ways to counter them but a very wise woman once said "The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see". The best response is something along these lines: "This is a law that lets people who are ALREADY qualified to carry handguns to carry them on campus. It does nothing more."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
IMHO, the biggest stumbling block even with progun folks is that unfortunately the student population of classic on campus residents (even if 21) are not seen as emotionally stable as the off campus more mature CCW population. Guns in the dorms or frat houses are seen as risk factor due to the stew of hormones and substance abuse.
The Chronicle just ran a series about repeated arsons in dorms from the delightful young men who live there. There was one of a frat house (remember our frat house thread) where the boys went out and shot up stuff for fun. That's what folks think of when one proposes adding guns to the mix.
This is a hard one. The best response I have found is merely to say "This will not make it so frat can carry around guns and bring them on campus and shoot them off etc." That is already illegal (and it obviously didn't stop anyone). It is already illegal to drink/snort/smoke/shootup and have a concealed firearm. Those people have already displayed a disdain for the law so they will probably have guns anyways. They are the people you have to be worried about. This law only makes it so that people who are already permitted to carry everywhere else can do so on campus. Incidentally, someone who has gone through the training for a CCW (at least here in MI) probably has levels of maturity way beyond the typical drunken frat boy. It takes a lot of money, time, patience, and loop-jumping to get a permit here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
The fear of an innocent getting shot overwhelms the possible good of stopping a rampage. Studies show this is a factor - risks to innocents even to do good are not that acceptable. Rampage rationales are seen as different from stopping personal muggings. You don't want untrained folks in a fire fight of some intensity. That's a factor in the debate.
This argument also appears. The best way to deal with this is to simply point out that people who would go on murderous rampages are already breaking the law. Incidentally people with CCW permits are statistically way less likely to go on murderous rampages (has there ever even been a case of this). You cannot have a diagnosed mental illness and get a CCW. Again, this law would only allow people who can already carry everywhere else to carry on campus.

In short, separate their argument from the effects of the law. The law only says that people with CCW permits can carry on campus. It does not make it legal to drink and have one. It does not make it legal to be high and have one. There could very well be a provision added that says that people who live in frat houses etc cannot have a firearm. A lot of gun owners would support that. This would not allow guns in dorms (the dorm population is under 21 and can't have a CCW. Also guess what, there are already guns in dorms. The people that have them have already broken the law. What else might they do?). It will not cause rampages on campus. Those already happen (and it's not a coincidence they happen in "gun free" zones). Again, it only allows people who are lawfully permitted to carry everywhere else to carry on campus.
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Old December 14, 2009, 03:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doh_312
I cannot say I'm well verses in the exact details of the CSU ban. I would imagine, since they cannot make laws up there, the only thing they can do to a non-student/employee, would be to have their security escort you off the premesis.

I cannot imagine they could call the police, there is no law being broken. But I'm not a law expert, certainly do not take my word for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rburch
If I read it right, this change is just an administrative ruling right?

Does it effect non-students/faculty?

Here in Virginia the public colleges can ban students & faculty from carrying, but there's no law against it. If you're caught, you're expelled, fired, etc. (The exemption is VCU where it is illegal to carry)

So at Virginia Tech, anyone who isn't a Student or Staff of Virginia Tech can carry there with a valid permit, including Students or Staff from another College.

I was just curious if the situation was the same at Colorado State?
Not sure how it works in Colorado but the University of Michigan along with Michigan State and I think Central Michigan University all have the power to create laws as if they were a municipality. They even have their own police force. Thus, if UofM says I can't carry and I do, I get arrested and charged with a felony gun crime. Their "policies" do carry the power of law.
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Old April 16, 2010, 12:37 PM   #11
Glenn E. Meyer
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Some new stuff - thus I resurrect it. Might be good news.

From the Chronicle of Higher Ed today:

Appellate Court Allows Challenge to Campus Gun Ban in Colorado
The Colorado Court of Appeals ruled on Thursday that a lawsuit challenging the University of Colorado's ban on concealed weapons can go forward, Law Week Colorado reported. A lower court had dismissed the suit in deference to the regents' policy-making authority. But a unanimous three-judge panel of the appellate court reinstated it, saying the campus ban appeared to violate state weapons law. "Had the legislature intended to exempt universities, it knew how to do so," the panel's opinion states.

This is the Law Week report - http://www.lawweekonline.com/2010/04...mpus-gun-ban/:

Colo. Court Of Appeals Reinstates Lawsuit Challenging CU’s Campus Gun Ban
Posted on 15 April 2010 By Matt Masich, LAW WEEK COLORADO

DENVER — A lawsuit challenging the University of Colorado’s campus gun ban is allowed to go forward, the Colorado Court of Appeals ruled Thursday.

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus sued the CU Board of Regents on the grounds that the university’s policy banning the possession of guns on its campuses — even by those with concealed carry permits — violates state law.

El Paso County District Court Judge G. David Miller dismissed the lawsuit in 2008, ruling that the gun ban falls within the prerogative of the CU regents.

But a three-judge panel of the Court of Appeals reversed that decision. In the unanimous opinion, Judge Robert Hawthorne said that the state’s Concealed Carry Act, which gives permit holders the right to carry a concealed weapon, applies to universities.

“The statute’s plain language applies to ‘all areas of the state’ and does not specify public universities in its list of exceptions,” Hawthorne wrote. “Had the legislature intended to exempt universities, it knew how to do so.”

Jim Manley of the Mountain States Legal Foundation, who represented Students for Concealed Carry, hailed the ruling as “a victory for individual freedom and a victory for the rule of law.”

Patrick O’Rourke, general counsel for the University of Colorado, said he was disappointed by the decision.

“We thought the trial court had applied the correct reasoning to determine that the regents’ weapons-control policy was an appropriate exercise of the regents’ constitutional authority,” O’Rourke said.

The university will decide over the next few weeks whether it will appeal the decision to the Colorado Supreme Court, he said.

“I think CU’s chances of winning on appeal are slim,” Manley said. “The Colorado Court of Appeals rejected all of CU’s arguments. The opinion is very well-reasoned and supported by precedent and sound interpretation of the Concealed Carry Act and the Colorado Constitution.”
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Old April 16, 2010, 12:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
“I think CU’s chances of winning on appeal are slim,” Manley said.
Let's hope so! That said™, I doubt leftist extremists ever have to shop very hard or long to find a leftist extremist judge.
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Old April 16, 2010, 01:22 PM   #13
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I live in the same town CSU is located.
Our local sheriff made CCW permits something for the ordinary law abiding citizen post 9-11.CSU has had responsible citizens carrying on campus for quite a while.I am sure if there was a problem with the alleged irresponsible students,it would have been in the local headlines.
I have lived here since 1966,I have not heard of a problem.
That is the reality.The rest is about fears and agendas..
Other realities are cases like Virginia Tech,Columbine,and Fort Hood.A CCW may have saved innocent lives,or the case of the New Life Church in Colorado Sprngs,where indeed,many lives were saved by a CCW,with the courage of the woman who put the shooter down.
I thank and applaud those who are fighting in court to preserve the CCW at CSU,
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