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View Poll Results: Which is the best method for concealed carry?
In Battery (i.e. condition 1)- Round in Chamber 153 93.29%
Out of Battery- Need to Rack the Slide to Fire 11 6.71%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 7, 2010, 04:32 PM   #26
Puntmefar
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Until a few monthes ago I never carried at all but since more undisired incidents have happened closer to home and I have been wanting to get a ccw for a few years I decided now is a good time to get it. Any ways the point is I quickly learned from this forum and talking to a few buddys who are retired LOE's any thing less than condition 1 is simply not practical for the avrage person. So I carry at 3 o'clock one in the chamber and ready to fire on the draw and prey i never have to draw after all i dont belive any one in their right mind wants to
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Old April 7, 2010, 06:44 PM   #27
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It's just a club, which conviently stores ammo until a shell is in battery.
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Old April 7, 2010, 06:57 PM   #28
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they believe that one should never draw if under immediate threat anyway (i.e. at gunpoint),
That has got to be the strangest thing I've read all year. What would you do, simply surrender? Thanks no, I'd rather think things aren't going to go perfectly for the bad guy, than lay my life at his feet.

I carry a 1911 in condition one, most times. When I am carrying a Glock, it is fully loaded with one in the pipe.
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Old April 7, 2010, 07:00 PM   #29
vladan
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I carry one in the pipe no matter what gun Im using.
But if Im reading the op.right he is using a belt clip instead of a holster.
I personally would not carry a striker fired pistol with no external safety in that manner.
^^^ what he said ... I carry my weapon in condition 1 or 2(cz75) ...IN THE HOLSTER.
Cant think of better scenario how to shoot myself than to carry glock with one in chamber just tucked inside the waist band with no holster covering trigger.
Does the OP practice the draw? UNLOAD your glock, tuck it and try draw as fast as possible. You'll be surprised how easy it is touch the trigger when drawing under the stress.
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:21 PM   #30
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The argument of needing to get behind cover is crazy. In court, if you can get behind cover, maybe you should have ran in the first place than have a shootout. A shootout probably wouldnt happen anyway, most likley when you draw your gun, youll need it where you draw it, so being read to go is key. If you have the oppurtunity to run, do it. The best gunfight is one you never had.
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:39 PM   #31
senior
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condition one

I think if one checks the history of the 1911 fully they will see the 1911 was NOT made to carry condition one,as original version had no thumb safety and was only added at insistance of the army during trails. Mr Browning and the others who aided in its development had no recomendation as to its carry method. Safety was added for the purpose of allowing cavalry units to safely reholster and not shoot their mounts trying.
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:54 PM   #32
Frank Ettin
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Originally Posted by senior
I think if one checks the history of the 1911 fully they will see the 1911 was NOT made to carry condition one,as original version had no thumb safety and was only added at insistance of the army during trails...
At this point, some 99 years later, how the 1911 was originally intended to be carried is pretty much irrelevant. In addition, tactical doctrine has evolved considerably, and the use today of 1911 as a self defense tool is very different from its use as a military sidearm almost 100 years ago.

So the fact remains that a 1911 can be safely carried in condition 1 by a reasonably well trained person and is routinely carried that way by a great many people who rely on the 1911 as their primary personal defensive weapon. And at schools such as Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, and by instructors such as Massad Ayoob and Louis Awerbuck, condition 1 is taught as the preferred method of carrying a 1911.
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:40 PM   #33
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The Glock, when carried in a holster that covers the trigger is perfectly safe with a round chambered.

A couple of terminology corrections. Generally "Out of Battery" indicates that the action is open (not completely closed as it would be for firing), it does not refer specifically to whether a round is in the chamber or not. A gun can be "out of battery" with a round in the chamber or it can be "in battery" with an empty chamber.
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A Glock, with loaded chamber, is in Condition 0; a pull of the trigger, without any other preparation, fires the gun.
Since the definition of Condition 0 is "chamber loaded, cocked, safety off", it is not an accurate way to refer to a Glock with a loaded chamber.

The chamber is loaded, but that's where the similarity ends.

A Glock is never really "cocked" until the trigger has been pulled nearly all the way rearward. So the qualification "cocked", doesn't really apply.

All of the Glock's safeties are enabled until the trigger has been pulled nearly all the way rearward. So the safety isn't really off.

If you wanted to draw a comparison to a hammer-fired gun, the best way to do it would be to liken a chambered Glock to a chambered double-action hammer-fired gun with the hammer placed in a half-cock safety position (like some of the CZ pistols employ).
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Old April 8, 2010, 06:07 AM   #34
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The Conditions of Readiness:
The legendary guru of the combat 1911, Jeff Cooper, came up with the "Condition" system to define the state of readiness of the 1911-pattern pistol. The are:
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
The mode of readiness preferred by the experts is Condition One. Generally speaking, Condition One offers the best balance of readiness and safety. Its biggest drawback is that it looks scary to people who don't understand the operation and safety features of the pistol.
Condition Two is problematic for several reasons, and is the source of more negligent discharges than the other conditions. When you rack the slide to chamber a round in the 1911, the hammer is cocked and the manual safety is off. There is no way to avoid this with the 1911 design. In order to lower the hammer, the trigger must be pulled and the hammer lowered slowly with the thumb onto the firing pin, the end of which is only a few millimeters away from the primer of a live round. Should the thumb slip, the hammer would drop and fire the gun. Not only would a round be launched in circumstances which would be at best embarrassing and possibly tragic, but also the thumb would be behind the slide as it cycled, resulting in serious injury to the hand. A second problem with this condition is that the true 1911A1 does not have a firing pin block and an impact on the hammer which is resting on the firing pin could conceivably cause the gun to go off, although actual instances of this are virtually nonexistent. Finally, in order to fire the gun, the hammer must be manually cocked, again with the thumb. In an emergency situation, this adds another opportunity for something to go wrong and slows the acquisition of the sight picture.
Condition Three adds a degree of "insurance" against an accidental discharge since there is no round in the chamber. To bring the gun into action from the holster, the pistol must be drawn and the slide racked as the pistol is brought to bear on the target. This draw is usually called "the Israeli draw" since it was taught by Israeli security and defense forces. Some of the real expert trainers can do an Israeli draw faster than most of us can do a simple draw, but for most of us, the Israeli draw adds a degree of complexity, an extra step, and an opening for mistakes in the process of getting the front sight onto the target.
Using the "half-cock" as a safety
The half-cock notch on the M1911 is really intended as a "fail-safe" and is not recommended as a safety. However, it has been used as a mode of carry. From Dale Ireland comes this interesting piece of service history from WWII:
When the hammer is pulled back just a few millimeters it "half cocks" and pulling the trigger will not fire the gun [on genuine mil-spec G.I. pistols]. I imagine this is an unsafe and not a recommended safety position. The reason I bring it up however is that it was a commonly used position especially by left-handers in WWII. My father carried his 1911 (not A1) to Enewitok, Leyte, first wave at Luzon, the battle inside Intramuros, and until he was finally shot near Ipo dam. He tells me that he regularly used the half cocked safety position especially at night and patrolling because bringing the weapon to the full cocked position from the half cocked created much less noise and he was left handed so he couldn't use the thumb safety effectively. He said using the half cocked position was all about noise reduction for lefties while maintaining a small amount of safety that could quickly be released.
Again, the half-cock is intended as a fail-safe in the event that the sear hooks were to fail, and it is not recommended as a mode of carry. It should also be noted that on guns with "Series 80" type hammers, the hammer will fall from half-cock when the trigger is pulled. This would include guns from Springfield Armory and modern production Colts. But, if you happen to be a south paw and find yourself in the jungle with a G.I. M1911A1 and surrounded by enemy troops, the half-cock might be an option.

Lee
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Old April 8, 2010, 06:38 AM   #35
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As others have already stated, carry it how you're comfortable. Personally, no matter what pistol I carry, there's a round in the chamber.

An unloaded weapon ( no round in chamber) is a brick IMHO. In a situation where split seconds count, I don't wanna have to rack a slide. I've safely carried a 1911 in condition 1 for decades, and will continue to do so daily...I've also carried Glocks, XDs, and older hammerless autos the same way.
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Old April 8, 2010, 06:52 AM   #36
gotigers
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cond. 1 here at 3 o'clock. I can't imagine being surpised by a bad guy and losing the half second to rack a slide. All the things that could go wrong, scare me. What if you in a car and don't have the room you are used to having.
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Old April 8, 2010, 07:07 AM   #37
Rich Miranda
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I have conditioned myself to always keep my finger off of the trigger unless I am ready to fire. When I draw, my index (trigger) finger is always and automatically pointing forward and is gently pressed against the side of the gun. No gun I own will fire without the trigger being pulled. Bottom line? I feel perfectly safe carrying ANY GUN I own with a round chambered and safety off (it so happens that all my semi-autos have safeties).

The idea that guns are in imminent danger of going off without user input is a fantasy of those who are firearm-ignorant. Bottom line? If you draw the weapon, and your finger doesn't touch the trigger, it won't go off.

So, for me: one in the chamber, safety off. Why? Because I don't want the one time I have to defend my life to be at the very end of it.

Ironically, when I lock my gun up at the end of the day, I put the safety on.

But I still encourage people to do what they are comfortable with, and then train that way. They'll still be much better off than the gun-less.
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Old April 8, 2010, 10:13 AM   #38
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oosnakeoo"The argument of needing to get behind cover is crazy. In court, if you can get behind cover,maybe you should have ran in the first place than have a shootout "

That might be one of the most dangerous and not very smart things I've read. Just because I'm smart and taking cover, doesn't mean I can run away. Anytime you can take cover, TAKE COVER, court has nothing to do with getting out of the line of fire.
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Old April 8, 2010, 11:02 AM   #39
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The only real value I see to carrying chamber-empty is for a new gun owner to gain confidence in his or her gun handling, holster, etc. This should be a fairly short part of a learning curve, but it is not unreasonable and we should probably respect the fact that those people are being safety conscious.

As a permanent decision, though, such a habit produces a needless delay in bringing a sidearm into action.

I have to join a couple of the earlier posts in expressing some concerns about carrying a Glock without a holster, though. The clip is better than Mexican carry, in that it will keep the pistol from sliding down your pants leg a la Plaxico Burress, but it is still conceivable that a wrinkle of clothing or something in a pocket could get inside the trigger guard. My personal standard is to always have the trigger covered in some manner.
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Old April 8, 2010, 01:40 PM   #40
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Holy Freaking Cow Man- READ THE OP!!

Wow. I am literally amazed at how many people only read about 8 words of my OP here and don't have any idea where I stand on the issue before they start criticizing me. (i.e. you sound like an idiot).

The biggest reason that I can administer to this problem is that of the Tueller drill. For those of you who don't know what it is, it is a drill that was developed years ago with police in mind. It states that an average person can cross about 21 feet (7 yards) in 1.5 seconds (the average time it takes a trained person to draw a holstered weapon and fire. This drill is generally performed with an armed attacker weilding a knife.

Conclusions? A person that does not already have his hand on his weapon, ready to draw and fire is in imenent danger of severe injury or death within 21 feet of his attacker if that attacker is armed with a knife or bludgeon.

21 feet is a huge distance when thinking tactically.

When you add in the other .5-1 second it takes you to re-position the weapon, rack the slide, present and get a sight picture before firing, and you can increase that distance of iminent injury or death to 28 to 35 feet...

...for the average person...


I always carry one in the chamber.
If I'm blitz attacked, I'll sure as heck TRY to be ready, but every running back in the NFL could go for a 1st down before I even get my sights on a guy who is already comming after me with a weapon.

Food For Thought,
~LT

*And for the record, I (The OP) carry my Glock 19 in a IWB HOLSTER which clips to my belt, not the retention clip favored by those who carry pocket pistols which are light enough to be effectively retained by them.

Last edited by LordTio3; April 8, 2010 at 02:36 PM.
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Old April 8, 2010, 03:10 PM   #41
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Quote:
*And for the record, I (The OP) carry my Glock 19 in a IWB HOLSTER which clips to my belt, not the retention clip favored by those who carry pocket pistols which are light enough to be effectively retained by them.
If that is the case I'm with you 100%, but your original post ( before you edited it ) stated that you wear your glock inside your waist WITH clip so don't be surprised when some folks include me jumped on that.
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Old April 8, 2010, 03:11 PM   #42
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glock

dont drop it...
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Old April 8, 2010, 04:04 PM   #43
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Umm...

Didn't edit my method of carry. I edited the next to last sentence to ensure it was minimally offensive to the friends who will inevitably read it.

Secondly, There have been countless drop-tests performed with Glock Semi-Auto pistols. In fact, you can easily find one on Youtube where a .45 ACP model was dropped over 800 feet from a top-wing airplane. No discharges, no loss of function.

So...

...there.

~LT
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Old April 8, 2010, 04:38 PM   #44
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Quote:
Quote:
A Glock, with loaded chamber, is in Condition 0; a pull of the trigger, without any other preparation, fires the gun.

Since the definition of Condition 0 is "chamber loaded, cocked, safety off", it is not an accurate way to refer to a Glock with a loaded chamber.

The chamber is loaded, but that's where the similarity ends.
I'd say the absence of a manual safety is equivalent to "safety off"?
A Glock, in its normal ready condition, is most similar to a DA auto with the hammer down and safety off, since both must be "cocked" to fire, and why bring revolvers into it. It could be called Condition 2, since the "hammer" is down, but this is not the same condition of readiness as a single action pistol with the hammer down, since there's no separate cocking step required.
A Glock is never in Condition 1 (that was really the point I was trying to originally make).
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Old April 8, 2010, 05:08 PM   #45
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re

guess i'm just ole school but if there isn't a round in the pipe i might as well carry a stick
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Old April 8, 2010, 05:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Didn't edit my method of carry. I edited the next to last sentence to ensure it was minimally offensive to the friends who will inevitably read it.

Secondly, There have been countless drop-tests performed with Glock Semi-Auto pistols. In fact, you can easily find one on Youtube where a .45 ACP model was dropped over 800 feet from a top-wing airplane. No discharges, no loss of function.

So...

...there.

~LT
O..K so what's the point? since you carry in holster (right?) it is in no danger to fall down your pants 800 feet from top-wing airplane ...
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:02 PM   #47
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Im one of the few that carries either Condition 1 or 3 dpending on the holster Im using. When Im using my Blackhawk retention or my open top speed holster, Im in Condition 3. If I have my thumb break holster, Im in Condition 1. It all depends what you are comfortable with. If I though there was a 100% guarantee that the thumb safety would never be dis-engadged while carrying, I would be in Condition 1 all the time. This is my preference and Im not trying to persuade anybody to agree with my logic. "To each his own"
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:53 PM   #48
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1 in the pipe. Always. No reason for me not to.
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Old April 9, 2010, 12:26 AM   #49
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glock

per lmpd..
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Old April 9, 2010, 06:29 AM   #50
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Wow. Again? For Real? PSA

Quote:
O..K so what's the point? since you carry in holster (right?) it is in no danger to fall down your pants 800 feet from top-wing airplane ...
Really. This was old DAYS ago. And it's not just you, it's a TON of people. So now it's time for the "Billy May's Key."

STOP ASKING ME WHY I DON'T CARRY A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER... BECAUSE I DO... CARRY A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER... ME... THE ROUND CHAMBER CARRIER... OVER HERE... THE ONE WITH THE ROUND IN THE CHAMBER READY TO FIRE... YAH... ME... THANKS... NOW TRY AND PAY ATTENTION AND STOP SENDING ME INSULTING PERSONAL MESSAGES ABOUT YOUR POOR READING ABILITIES OR CARELESSNESS MIXED WITH SELF RIGHTEOUS NONSENSE. YOU DON'T GAIN SMART POINTS BY TELLING PEOPLE THEY ARE DUMB AFTER YOU MESS UP. YOU LOOK LIKE AN INCOMPETANT FOOL. READ THE OP YOU CRUEL, LAZY, INCOMPETANTS.


This ends the Public Service Announcement. Commencing "rest of life"...

To all of the rest of you with productive comments, I appreciate it VERY much. This is the reason that this mode of communication and media exists in the first place and I love the fact that you are all so supportive and willing to share your wealth of experience and thoughts. Please keep up the community and support.
Thank you,
~LordTio
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