The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

View Poll Results: Which is the best method for concealed carry?
In Battery (i.e. condition 1)- Round in Chamber 153 93.29%
Out of Battery- Need to Rack the Slide to Fire 11 6.71%
Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 7, 2010, 07:34 AM   #1
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Condition 1...

Okay... I've been carrying my Glock 19 IWB for almost 2 straight years now very nearly every single day. It is at 4 o'clock and it is always fully loaded with one in the chamber. Since the glock is striker-fired, I consider this to be "condition 1" carry. I have my own personal beliefs as to the advantages of carrying condition one, but most all of them predicate on the idea that I am able to get into action faster; bottom line.

I have 2 friends who do things a bit differently. They both carry in the same fashion as I do (clip IWB at 4 o'clock), but both of them carry out of battery. There is no round in the chamber. One carries a 4"barrel Springfield xD9, and the other carries a Smith and Wesson SW9Ve. The general philosophy shared by both of them is that if the gun is wretched away from them before they can use it, it won't fire until cycled, giving more time for a response. Along with this, they believe that one should never draw if under immediate threat anyway (i.e. at gunpoint), so when you draw inconspicuously or when behind cover, racking the slide takes very little time anyway.

Am I the only crazy one who thinks that this is a bad idea? They believe in the cost-benefit ratio that this method provides. However that philosophy just doesn't quite make sense to me. I personally think condition 1 is the preferable way to go for a number of reasons.

So my question is, which do you think is the best condition to carry, and why?

Thanks a +P load,
~LordTio

Last edited by LordTio3; April 8, 2010 at 01:27 PM.
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 07:43 AM   #2
ryan huddleston
Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2008
Location: Charleston WV
Posts: 77
I say Cary however you want and don't wory about how others do it. Adleast they have a gun on them so if it were to hit the fan they are already 100 steps ahead of the avrage everyday person.
ryan huddleston is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 07:48 AM   #3
Blue Grass
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 12, 2009
Posts: 364
The 1911 was made to be carried cocked and locked (Condition 1). That's how I carry mine.Decide what's best for you.
Blue Grass is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 08:15 AM   #4
riggins_83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2009
Location: Wherever I may roam
Posts: 1,483
No matter how fast a person is racking the slide it will require the use of both hands in 99% of cases. If the attacker is within arms length this can be a real problem.
__________________
l've heard police work is dangerous. Yes, that's why l carry a big gun. Couldn't it go off accidentally? l used to have that problem. What did you do about it?
l just think about baseball. -Leslie Nielsen
riggins_83 is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 09:08 AM   #5
Leejack
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: The Alamo!
Posts: 2,024
No matter what gun I'm carrying; it is ready to rock-n-roll!

Lee
Leejack is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 09:14 AM   #6
crghss
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 537
If that's the way your friends think then so be it. There is some merit to the argument, not sure I'd follow suite thought. As for me, my 1911, condition 1. If the weapon doesn't have a safety then I wouldn't carry condition 1. Thats me, others can do as they please.
crghss is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 09:16 AM   #7
DrBundy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2010
Location: New Orleans, LA
Posts: 140
I think you're looking for a black and white answer in a grey world. I can't answer your poll question because my answer is "it depends". It depends on a lot of variables, most of which have been discussed ad nauseum on this forum and elsewhere. We can "what if" scenarios all day long, and I'm happy to do that sitting around a fire pit drinking beer or enjoying a cup of coffee at the range.

Bottom line is, as long as you are comfortable and secure with how YOU carry, nothing else matters.

Cheers!

~A
__________________
"It's never my intent to offend, but sometimes I offend with my intent."
~Anthrax
DrBundy is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 10:11 AM   #8
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
The only way to carry your pistol is loaded including a round in the chamber. An unloaded pistol is useless. If you're scared of carrying a pistol loaded, perhaps you should consider carrying a double action revolver.

As long as you have a good holster and you practice safe holstering and presentations, you should have nothing to worry about.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 10:50 AM   #9
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 11,495
Personally, I find it silly to carry a semi auto without a round in the chamber. If I need my gun, I'll need it BADLY and taking the time to rack the slide seems like a dangerous waste of time.

However, if your friends are comfortable with using that method, it's their life on the line. Carry as you are comfortable and they'll do the same.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 11:49 AM   #10
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,774
I carry whenever I legally can, and I carry with a round in the chamber (most often a 1911 in condition 1, but occasionally an H&K P7M8 with a round in the chamber). I'm not clairvoyant, so (1) I have no way of knowing how quickly I may need to put my gun to use if I need it; and (2) and I'm not willing to count on have two hands available.

This subject has been discussed a lot. See --

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361056

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368375

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=399039

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=389748

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398481
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 11:54 AM   #11
Qtiphky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 11, 2008
Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge
Posts: 555
Ready to rock

When I carry, I always carry ready to rock. I understand the argument of safe today here tomorrow, and racking the slide while under cover, but what if you can't get there? If you need to draw your gun, you need it right now, not in .5 seconds, not in a rack the slide time frame, not in how long does it take to get to cover, etc. . . Just my opinion.
Qtiphky is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 11:54 AM   #12
RickB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 1, 2000
Location: Western WA
Posts: 5,750
A Glock, with loaded chamber, is in Condition 0; a pull of the trigger, without any other preparation, fires the gun. Any gun that is on my person is going to be in the "most ready" condition. While it seems strange even to me sometimes, the less accessible the gun is, the less ready I keep it. Something about not having direct control over the gun that makes me want to keep it hammer-down, or even with an unloaded chamber when the gun is beyond reach.
RickB is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 12:04 PM   #13
KenpoTex
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2009
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTio3
The general philosophy shared by both of them is that if the gun is wretched away from them before they can use it, it won't fire until cycled, giving more time for a response.
Two things...
1) Sounds like they need to work on their handgun rentention skills (a.k.a. learn how to fight)

2) If you are already in a hand-to-hand fight, drawing your pistol is not the first priority. The first priority is establishing some sort of positional dominance so that you can access your pistol "cleanly."

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTio3
Along with this, they believe that one should never draw if under immediate threat anyway (i.e. at gunpoint), so when you draw inconspicuously or when behind cover, racking the slide takes very little time anyway.
It'd be nice if we always knew, in advance, that we were going to need a gun...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordTio3
Am I the only crazy one who thinks that this is a bad idea? They believe in the cost-benefit ratio that this method provides; but I just can't wrap my head around it.
You're not crazy and it IS a bad idea...
__________________
"Either you are the weapon and your gun is a tool, or your gun is the weapon and you are a tool."

Matt K.
KenpoTex is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 12:19 PM   #14
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 1,987
Quote:
The general philosophy shared by both of them is that if the gun is wretched away from them before they can use it, it won't fire until cycled, giving more time for a response.
Well, if it won't fire until cycled, it would seem more likely that the gun would be taken away, or that worse could happen...

Quote:
Along with this, they believe that one should never draw if under immediate threat anyway (i.e. at gunpoint),...
I can't understand that one. No, I don't think I would be likely to succeed if I were to draw on someone who already had the drop on me, but one really shouldn't be drawing a gun unless he is under immediate threat.

Quote:
... so when you draw inconspicuously or when behind cover, racking the slide takes very little time anyway.
Again, unless one is in imminent danger, one should not produce a weapon at all, and once that threat materializes, that "very little time" could make the difference between survival and death.

I can only assume that your friends have had very little training if any at all, and it's really not a very good idea to carry a gun without availing himself to some training.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 01:20 PM   #15
Sixer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Again, unless one is in imminent danger, one should not produce a weapon at all, and once that threat materializes, that "very little time" could make the difference between survival and death.
The threat may not be immediate, but still inevitable. I think a possible scenario would be a liquor store / gas station hold up where you may have no second means of exit and could catch some cover, while still having time to chamber a round.

I can see what the OP is getting at... still the best idea IMHO is to always have a round in the pipe.
__________________
Hopp Custom Leather <------ click for HOLSTER awesomeness!!

-There is no theory of evolution... Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Sixer is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 01:23 PM   #16
comn-cents
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Location: Pac.N.W.
Posts: 1,804
Doesn't matter, just practice/train how you carry.
__________________
Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!
comn-cents is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 01:35 PM   #17
LordTio3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2010
Location: Bloomington, Indiana
Posts: 850
Clarification

For those not reading the OP very clearly, I carry a round in the Chamber. And I tend to agree with most all of you here. I don't subscribe to a single philosophy in a world where different systems work for different people. I don't play the roll of jerk who tries to convince everyone else what I think is right. No one likes that guy.

I simply strive to apply the most common sense and intellect I can into every situation. Like I said, I carry condition 0 (or round in chamber) and am still worried about being able to get into the fight if the SHTF. I evenly jokingly tell my friends that they should open carry (legal in our state) so that if we're jumped or attacked, the BG's will go for them first and give me even MORE time to Assess and assert. I just want my friends to be as safe and ready as possible. And if that means they carry differently because that's what they feel most comfortable with, for whatever reason, I can hardly argue with that; can I?

Thanks for all the info though. It's good to hear solid philosophy from most all of you.
~LT
LordTio3 is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 01:47 PM   #18
AZAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 15, 2008
Location: the object towards which the action of the sea is directed
Posts: 2,103
A thought on the "gas station" scenario:

Duck behind cover quietly.

Rack slide, "CHUCK-CHUCK" (or however you might spell it!)

BG hears slide rack and immediately knows the sound, he now begins new target acquisition mode.

OPPS!
__________________
The lowest paid college major/degree in this country after graduation...
Elementary Education.

Now, go figure...
AZAK is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 02:11 PM   #19
gwnorth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 3, 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 692
You hear this a lot, about how the sound of an pistol slide or pump shotgun being racked will "scare" the BG into looking elsewhere.

My father was a parole officer and then a prison warden in a combined dual medium/max security facility. For a lot of the violent offenders he dealt with, that sound would just bring a wicked grin to their face as you just announced "game on". These are people who have little regard for their own lives and safety (as evidenced by their very life choices of violence and crime), and are either arrogant enough, or just plain crazy enough to not care or at least not think about consequences of actions and such.

You wouldn't wave a red flag in front of a fighting bull would you? So why would you want to provoke a rise out of an armed criminal? Stealth and silence are golden if they let you simply extricate yourself from a dangerous situation versus alerting a perp. that you are armed and ready for them.


P.S. So yes, I voted round chambered and ready to fire. My personal choice is primarily DA revolvers or DA/SA decocker pistols. Either way, all I have to do is aim and squeeze, no warning, no alerting sound - if the situation escalates to shooting then draw and fire. If I were to carry my 1911, it would be cocked'n'locked.
gwnorth is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 02:21 PM   #20
Alaska444
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2010
Posts: 1,231
For myself, the choice of my weapon is predicated on having a manual safety with decocker so that you get the best of both options. A simple thumb push on the manual safety while drawing into a DA first pull followed by SA repeating rounds gives you access to an immediate round with the highest degree of safety. Unfortunately, there are not that many handguns with this configuration.

So, yes chamber a round, but for me, decocked and manual safety adds another layer of safety.
Alaska444 is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 02:21 PM   #21
Onward Allusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2009
Location: IN
Posts: 1,761
It took me a while to be comfortable with having a round in the chamber of a traditional DA or DAO semi-auto. I still don't like carrying a 1911 in condition 1 (cocked & locked), but I don't own those anymore.
__________________
"With great power, there must also come great responsibility." - Stan Lee

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Onward Allusion is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 02:44 PM   #22
Chindo18Z
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 23, 1999
Posts: 493
This question comes up frequently for discussion on various firearms forums.

Ultimately the opposing camps dissemble the debate into an evaluation of probabilities:

How likely am I to ever need to fire a weapon in anger?
How likely am I to ever need to fire my weapon instantly?
Are the odds I'll need to draw and fire one in a hundred or one in a billion?
If a gunfight is as unlikely as a lightning strike, do I even need a weapon?
Am I more worried about a fast draw or a possible grappling disarm scenario?
Am I an optimist or a pessimist?


I'll simply state that I prefer condition one and close with three familiar quotes and a personal observation:

1. "An empty handgun is a paperweight with potential."
2. "Opportunity knocks...Trouble kicks down the door."
3. "It isn't about the odds...It's about the stakes." (Lee Lapin - THR).

4. In my experience, life and death fights tend to go from bad to horribly worse...really, really fast.
__________________
Figure The Odds...
Chindo18Z is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 03:02 PM   #23
cougar gt-e
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2009
Posts: 829
I'm not allowed to CC (in Taxconsin there is no self defense by law abiding citizens here - only criminal can defend themselves ). But if I were, I would be carrying a gun with a mechanical safety and not just a trigger safety and would then carry in C1. 99% it would be a 1911 style single stack. Designed to be carried that way.

The Glock or XD guns with no mechanical safety seem to have many more ND's, so much so that everyone gunliterate knows what "Glock leg" is. I'm careful, but that's still too spooky for me! I'd rather just rely on muscle memory to draw, click and fire. Much better than fire while drawing!

jb
cougar gt-e is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 03:13 PM   #24
Sixer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,891
Quote:
Rack slide, "CHUCK-CHUCK" (or however you might spell it!)
Lol, I don't know how you spell it, but I like the CHUCK-CHUCK! Were you sitting at your computer making the noise while you were thinking of how to spell it? I know I was

Anyway, the gas station is my scenario... and in my scenario the BG is being very loud and doesn't hear the slide rack (forgot to mention that part). Besides, after I rack my slide, I'm not going to assume the fetal position, close my eyes, and play hide and seek with this dude. I'm going to be assessing and acquiring as I rack the slide. The sound will be more like a fluid CHUCK-CHUCK-BOOM! Of course this is just my scenario

Quote:
3. "It isn't about the odds...It's about the stakes." (Lee Lapin - THR).
First time I've heard that quote... I dig it.
__________________
Hopp Custom Leather <------ click for HOLSTER awesomeness!!

-There is no theory of evolution... Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Sixer is offline  
Old April 7, 2010, 03:29 PM   #25
iblong
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 1, 2008
Location: MN
Posts: 532
I carry one in the pipe no matter what gun Im using.
But if Im reading the op.right he is using a belt clip instead of a holster.
I personally would not carry a striker fired pistol with no external safety in that manner.
iblong is offline  
Reply

Tags
ccw , chamber , concealed carry , condition 1 , glock

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13256 seconds with 8 queries