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Old April 3, 2010, 04:34 PM   #26
CajunPowder
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21 more years to practice !

Doc:

Thanks for reading the post, I hope you've enjoyed our time in the thread. Keep an eye peeled for "Guam Springs Lemonade" coming soon to a store near you, and "Blade Harvest - Cochon De Lait", the "Smaller Swine" that bakes up just in time.

Hawg:

Thank you very much for your participation in my first thread and dealin' with mah ramblin'.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com:

It's a pleasure to make the acquaintance of a 50 yd. champion. You've got some exceptional posts on thefiringline.com for sure. I saw "My Little .36 Target", (the blued steel model), that looks like a 6" barrel as well. I'm thinking 6 1/2" to 7" for myself and I'm very interested in having a target barrel with a match crown, etc..., (later).

I see your blued steel ROA target model for $400 as well.

I'm beginning to understand that perhaps the best source for Black Powder revolvers are the forums rather than the stores! I know you wouldn't have an ROA in your possession that was in anything less than great condition. I wish I could buy it but I'm completely focused on these Remmies to get me and my buddies started.

I really enjoy the meticulous perfectionism involved in target shooting. I have some exceptional memories from Lookout Mountain Camp for boys in Mentone, Alabama. I got my sharpshooter bars there at 8 and 9 years old with some very old .22's. By the end of the first summer I knew which one shot best and attempted to claim it when I returned the following summer, (it was no secret by that time). I had truly exceptional eyesight at that age but no strong concepts of breath and rythm, etc... Even though, the counselors at camp always gave me a rough time when I went to the range because I could out shoot them all.

I hope that I can get my group of interested range buddies off the ground and into competition mode with a few braces of Uberti stainless steel Remington New Army target models and I'm hoping "D" will come through for me. They say they have upwards of 40 in stock.

They are on sale now for $375 down from $395.

I, (we), intend to send all that we buy directly from the box to a gunsmith for the basics and will probably finish the grind and file marks out ourselves before sending them to the gunsmith. We're thinking of sending them to Jay Strite as he is within driving distance. Any conversion cylinder fitting I have done we will have Jay do as well with the civil war konverter.

What is your favorite converter cylinder? Have you seen this, (Howell's), R&D product that is available for the Remmie that holds only five rounds and is stainless steel? I'm looking for some confirmation and feedback on this:

The strongest .45 caliber 5 shot conversion on the market today. It has straight bore throw chambers for the best accuracy.

I called River Junction and they confirmed that it is in stock and works for the Remmie.

Any suggestions for gunsmith's that are noted for their experience and skills working on the '58 Remmies will be appreciated.

Again, I'll try for some pictures, (Sunday night), of the issues I've been discussing.
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Old April 3, 2010, 09:04 PM   #27
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Get you a ruger old army

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Old April 5, 2010, 01:50 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunPowder
Any suggestions for gunsmith's that are noted for their experience and skills working on the '58 Remmies will be appreciated.
http://www.ravensroostcustom.com/601.html
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Old April 7, 2010, 03:51 AM   #29
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Peened Cylinder Notch Edges

FIGURE 01:



The edges of the cylinder notches are peened and continue to peen on this brand new, out of the box, Uberti replica of an 1858 Remington New Army model 44 caliber revolver in stainless steel; this is the target model.

This series of macro images was taken by myself and processed in photoshop. No filters were applied to these images, no auto leveling, no sharpening, (no filters were applied). The images were cropped and sized and then saved at the maximum quality as jpeg.

When I recieved this revolver the peening of the cylinder notch edges was barely noticeable and then only on a few cylinders. After cocking the revolver perhaps as many as 60 times, the damage is nearly done.

Of note, (in the four click series we listen for that tells our ears that a Remington New Army model revolver may exhibit good timing), the third and fourth clicks are almost indistinguishable unless you labor to pull the hammer back as slowly as possible, (the revolver has a fairly smooth action). The third and fourth clicks are extremely close together.

Of note, the trigger has an exceptionally light pull and a break like the finest crystal champagne glass. It is nearly a hair-trigger.

Next I will post macro images of the bolt taken so as to show the slant of the bolt face, (slant of the bolt surface), as best as possible.
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Old April 7, 2010, 03:56 AM   #30
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Slanted bolt face. Uberti Remington 1858 New Army Stainless Steel Target Model

FIGURE 02:



These two images show how the bolt face, (or bolt surface), is slanted, (per its design), as well as offset to the side of the centerline of the frame, (laterally offset from the basepin). One of the images is taken from the left side of the frame, (the other from the right side of the frame), looking from the front of the revolver to the back of this Uberti Remington New Army Model, (stainless steel target model), new and fresh out of the box.

In the next post, the next set of images will show a close up of the bolt face, (or bolt surface). We will be able to examine the markings on the bolt face made by the contact with the cylinder and the cylinder notch surfaces, (edges and interiors).

Edit Made : 04-08-2010

I do not think the bolt face is slanted enough, but filing it anymore would probably shorten it too much.

Last edited by CajunPowder; April 8, 2010 at 12:36 AM. Reason: Learned something!
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Old April 7, 2010, 04:02 AM   #31
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Bolt face, bolt surface - wear and markings

FIGURE 03:



By comparing the markings on the bolt face, (this FIGURE 03), to the markings on the edges of the cylinder notches and the markings on the interior surfaces of the cylinder notches, (FIGURE 01), we can offer some conjecture as to how the bolt face, (or surface), is engaging the surfaces of the cylinder and cylinder notches and the effectiveness of that action, (timing).

If there are any additional photos that might be taken to make any of this more clear for the purposes of discussion, please note that and I will attempt to take those photos and post them.

I look forward to the discussion on this issue as at this point I consider myself an eager gunsmith student for the New Army Model Remington revolver. Rather than partaking of Guamian lemonade with Doc I would prefer to make some bank vaults when the need arises.

More pictures coming after some discussion ...

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Old April 7, 2010, 05:22 AM   #32
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CajunPowder

CP,

Here are two links to the Pettifogger articles on smoothing up the actions on Colt style revolvers. (I know we are talking about a Remington clone but you will see that some of the discussion is pertinent.)

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_One.pdf

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...a_Part_Two.pdf

The first article identifies the problems addressing specifically some of the problems you have mentioned. The second article speaks to the correction of the problems.

I think that much of this discussion should be informed by those articles. I think what you are seeing on the cylinder of the Uberti is the the pistol "shooting in". The shape of the metal surfaces in the area of the bolt and the notches develop over time as the action is cycled. Problem is, the bolt is slightly harder than the cylidere so most of the shaping happens to the cylinder creating the unsightly peening on the notches. Eventually if left uncorrected the pistols shoots itself loose.

I have used Pettifogger's technique to correct this problem and the bolt drag ring on the cylinder. I believe I have described the problem accurately in the previous paragraph but I would solicit others to fill in the blanks.

I would be willing to bet that fifty percent of the revolvers sold (without regard to who manufactures them as long as we are talking about pistols that cost less than $400.00 new) need to have this stuff done to them. Go to a gun show and look at the used revolvers. Or check the used pistols on Gunbroker and you will see that a high number have the beginning of a bolt drag ring.

I would add that the surfaces of the frame that appear to be unfinished are fairly common. You have noted this in the pistols you have purchased. Literally every (if I remember your comments correctly) one has had the same rough appearance. I have two Remingtons, both made by ASM. One is Brass, the other is blued steel. Neither one has a nice finish on the inner surfaces of the frame. Over my shooting life I can remember no 1858 which was finished the way a comtemporary cartridge revolver would be done. But at one third to one half the price, I just assume that this is one of the corners that was routinely cut.

We have an example of a black powder revolver that is made more or less to cartridge revolver standards in the Ruger old Army. When sold new they brought about the same price as the Single Six with equivalent features. (Again relying upon memory here.) At that time as now, that is far above the price of a Spanish or Italian replica. I lived in Italy for about a year in the late seventies. An Italian replica could be purchased for about 50 bucks. My first ROA (SS/7.5/adj sights.) was 85.00 in the Nato Sports Store. There was a cartridge revolver (Can't remember which) sitting right next to it in the display case for very much the same price. I remember this distinctly because I was trying to figure out how to get the pistols from Naples to just south of Rome without breaking any laws. (Always try to avoid Italian jails and Italian hospitals)
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Old April 7, 2010, 09:33 AM   #33
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Doc, thanks for those links. It looks like I've got a couple of new projects on my hands.

Add to your list of things to avoid: Italian electricians. Short story: an electrical outlet in the shower.
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Old April 7, 2010, 12:05 PM   #34
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Quote:
I would be willing to bet that fifty percent of the revolvers sold (without regard to who manufactures them as long as we are talking about pistols that cost less than $400.00 new) need to have this stuff done to them. Go to a gun show and look at the used revolvers. Or check the used pistols on Gunbroker and you will see that a high number have the beginning of a bolt drag ring.
I would say the drag ring on used single action revolvers is mostly caused by misuse. Mainly by letting the hammer down from half cock.
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Old April 7, 2010, 12:27 PM   #35
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Hawg

This may be the first time I disagree with you.

I think if the ring is continuous all the way around the cylinder it is because of contact with the bolt at all 360 degrees of the cylinder rotation. To me that almost has to mean that the bolt is dragging the cylinder all the way around the cylinder. Otherwise the ring would not be continuous.

I could easily be wrong.
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Old April 7, 2010, 01:24 PM   #36
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I thought I was wrong once, but turns out I was mistaken
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Old April 7, 2010, 03:47 PM   #37
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The pictures are great and illustrate what is often said about how there's not enough of a quality difference between the Uberti and Pietta [or Euroarms] Remingtons to be able to draw conclusions about which brand is better made or more desirable to purchase. Guns made by each company can only be judged on an individual basis.

What I'm seeing in the pictures looks to be far worse than the cylinder scoring rings that many guns have which are usually very minor and basically cosmetic by comparison since they aren't usually accompanied by any peening or damage to the cylinder notches at all.

If most folks had a choice of buying a gun that was either going to develop notch damage or a cylinder ring shortly after being taken out of the box, then having a cylinder ring would win hands down.

IMO even a poor trigger pull on a new gun could wear in on it's own over time and would be preferable to the notch damage in the photos.

Last edited by arcticap; April 7, 2010 at 09:24 PM.
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Old April 7, 2010, 05:16 PM   #38
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Doc, if the hammer is let down from half cock the cylinder is free to turn in either direction with the bolt resting against it. The result over time is a drag line all the way around.
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Old April 7, 2010, 05:51 PM   #39
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CajunPowder, I'm interested in a similar 1858 Remington. Yesterday, I spoke with a salesperson at Texas Jack's and was told they don't stock a stainless Uberti with adjustable rear sight. I then looked at Uberti's website and don't see one listed. Perhaps Dixie Gunworks special ordered Ubertis with adjustable sights or perhaps that's a discontinued model. Either way, if you're set on a stainless Uberti with adjustable sights, they may be the only vendor with any on the shelf.
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Old April 7, 2010, 07:46 PM   #40
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Hawg,

Yep...You are right. I was thinking you meant something differnt
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:39 PM   #41
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Uberti 1858 New Model Army Stainless Steel Target

arcticap:

After I return the Uberti I'm photographing and reviewing here I will inspect the exchange and if it passes a cursory inspection by myself, my RO and my gunsmith it goes DIRECTLY to Jay Strite for the basics and perhaps a muzzle crown. We'll see what Jay has to say. I'm going to get a good one to start me off, that much I know. Thanks for your participation here.

Hardcase:

Always carefully REMOVE the Chianti bottle from the rigid grip of the Italian electrician. They are fond of keeping themselves "grounded" by maintaining a tight grip on the grapes.

Hawg, Doc:

Thank you for continuing to add your knowledge to this thread and keep us all on track with respect to some extremely important details.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com:

Thanks for hanging in there with this thread.

azsixgun:

Just to make absolutely certain all of us understand the model of Uberti revolver I'm photographing and documenting in this thread here it is:



The above picture is from Uberti's newest website, http://www.ubertireplicas.com .

This next picture is of the Uberti revolver I am photographing for review and discussion in this thread:



I try to keep up with all the vendors and websites that might even only "possibly" offer the Uberti 1858 New Army Model revolver in 44 caliber and stainless steel with an adjustable rear sight and front blade sight.

Before I purchased the first Pietta model of this revolver, (non-target), I did a HUGE amount of research and reading on black powder, black powder revolvers and then replicas. I shopped and studied as many offerings of the Remington New Army model as I could find. It wasn't until after the first Pietta lemon from "C's" that I got serious about researching Uberti versus Pietta. And then I began to research the vendors themselves.

The first Pietta model I ordered was much more of a lemon than the Uberti I am photographing and documenting in this thread, (it was REALLY bad for that kind of money).

Interestingly, only Uberti's "newest" version of their website indicates this model, (adjustable sights in stainless steel), is produced by Uberti. You can see it at http://www.ubertireplicas.com, (the first picture displayed in this post).

The old Uberti website here DOES NOT show the model you and I want.

I tend to agree with your observation that only Dixie currently has these models in stock.

I too called Texas Jack's and they do not have this model in stock and do not offer it at all. One cannot obtain it from Texas Jack's. One can obtain it through Taylor's, (and it is a special order), and it is much more expensive than Dixie. Taylors, (to the best of my knowledge), does not regularly stock this model. The CEO of Taylors seems to be very nice and informative.

I find this model advertised here also:

1.) http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/produ...Collection.tpl (no price stated).

2.) http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eprod...eItemID=571139

Interestingly midwayusa just stopped listing this model.

Here are the pictures of the Proofs and factory markings found on this revolver:

FIGURE 04: Proofs and Factory marks on the frame.



FIGURE 05: Proofs and Factory marks on the Barrel.



FIGURE 06: Proofs and Factory marks on the Cylinder



- The infamous Uberti disclaimer found underneath the barrel, (covered up by the loading lever), does appear on this revolver.

I have more photos to share which I've had big fun taking and are proving to be a very good learning experience for me. I appreciate all of the knowledge and sincerity that is coming into this thread. When we help each other with guns, it's a type of concern that cannot be valued in a normal way.

One of my goals with this thread is to determine where the line is. When do you KEEP it and fix it up yourself per the "kit mentality" ... and when do you send it back in dissappointment and hope for a better one in exchange. And also, when do you keep it and send it to Jay Strite, (or a gunsmith of similar abilities), to work one into an exceptional example by spending some more money.

Last edited by CajunPowder; April 8, 2010 at 08:30 PM. Reason: Organizing and labeling.
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Old April 7, 2010, 10:57 PM   #42
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Cal. 44 black powder only - a. Uberti italy

----------
FIGURE 07:

Infamous Uberti disclaimer found underneath the barrel, (covered up by the loading lever).





So who's gonna figure it out? Is this REALLY an Uberti? I don't know, I don't have the experience and knowledge to tell.

The revolver I have been reviewing and photographing is for sale here:

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=4057

This is helping:

Modern Black Powder Proof Marks

The Dixie page says, "Manufactured in Italy by Uberti." If that is true the law requires that it have the "U" in the Octagon mark.

Do I have a "Frankenstein" revolver?

Last edited by CajunPowder; April 8, 2010 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Laughing at myself too hard.
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Old April 8, 2010, 04:04 AM   #43
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I think that there's no way that a dealer can simply look inside of a box and be able to determine whether a revolver will have a hidden flaw or not.

So I would call and ask Dixie how they would handle another rejected revolver if you choose to ask for an exchange rather than a refund.

I know that you don't want to keep this revolver for many reasons. However the damage to your cylinder looks worse under magnification then to the naked eye. And at this point the actual damage is still cosmetic in that it doesn't affect function yet.
Since you plan on having gun smithing performed on any replacement that you might get anyway, I would further probe Dixie over the phone to see if they will work out a deal with you to either exchange your cylinder or sell you a replacement cylinder at a discount. You should explain that you're on the fence about the gun smithing expenses that will be incurred to have the gun fixed and that you feel that they should help you out so that you won't need to return the entire gun.
Feel them out because you'll most likely be paying to fix the next one too if you do decide to keep that.
And also because you will probably want to have a spare cylinder anyway. So even though the cylinder has cosmetic marks, the gun itself will be fixed and the cylinder should function just fine.

Uberti has failed to satisfy you twice now.

And if you leverage your request by assertively saying that you're thinking about asking them for a full refund, then you may be able to make some headway toward getting a deal for just the replacement cylinder that you really need to be on your way to being satisfied.

If you really don't want to keep the gun for all of the other reasons mentioned, then why gamble on another Uberti at all?

At least Cabela's doesn't have a problem exchanging a revolver model over and over again and you weren't willing to take a gamble on another Pietta.

However I'm concerned that Dixie might not be so tolerant if the next gun is unsatisfactory and/or worse than the one that you've already received.

Last edited by arcticap; April 8, 2010 at 06:19 PM.
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Old April 8, 2010, 06:12 AM   #44
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the law requires that it have the "U" in the Octagon mark.
I'm not aware of any law that requires the manufacturer to apply such a mark.
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Old April 8, 2010, 10:34 AM   #45
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Cajan Powder

After you quite messing around with the revolvers, you can try a single shot
like my old Flintlock here. This is perfection at it's best! Cost 800.00
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Old April 8, 2010, 03:29 PM   #46
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CajunPowder, thank you for your kind and detailed response! Indeed, I was looking at the old Uberti website. I didn't realize there was an old and new site and will have to take a look at the new site. I didn't see a normal blue finish, standard sight 1858 Remington on the new site?

The CC date code on yours makes it a 2008 production gun.
http://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PD...Proofmarks.pdf


Thanks again for your helpful comments!
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:24 PM   #47
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Uberti 1858 - Topstrap and Bottom strap.

articap:

I agree, unless a gunsmith that is familiar with the make and model inspects it, I don't see how a dealer could catch any mechanical flaws.

I'm sure Dixie will exchange the revolver. I can't move on to a fourth vendor. The other gentlemen involved in this project with me have had their patience tested enough. This is the model we all want but we may have to move to a different model. It's primarily my passion for powder that started all of this and that's what's going to see it through. They didn't think they'd be running into these issues.

They just want to be able to post a 5-star review after they pull it out of the box like the ones they have seen at Cabela's and Dixie, etc...

I follow your strategy to bargain on price by balancing the expense of gunsmith work. This is an especially good strategy as I want to purchase at least 4 of these. 1 for the range members and guests, 1 for ME, and 2 for others who are interested.

The first one has got to be a peach or nobody is going to bite. They just want to know how much money they need to be prepared to spend.

I'm thinking that the membership here has offered the most satisfactory of all explanations as to quality. It's not about Pietta versus Uberti versus Lyman versus Euroarms ... it's about each piece and perhaps - the lots of pieces- .

If I can't work things out with Dixie, I may indeed return to Cabela's and try to fish out some good Pietta's but that drives the price up as one has to absorb additional shipping.

One thing for sure, it's important that all of these stainless steel target models I acquire be either Uberti or Pietta. I don't want a mix of these as I want to develop my knowledge on one set of variables ... at first.

Thanks for making me think, .

mykeal:

I'm mistaken. There's no "law" here, and I confused the fact that any black powder gun made in Italy since 1950 must have both the "provisional Gardone proof" as well as the "black powder proof" for Gardone and Brescia. I am just concerned and dissappointed that there is no Uberti proof on the revolver, (no "U" inside an Octagon).

It may indeed be an Uberti barrel, but there could always be an argument as to whether the other parts, (including internals), are Uberti. Thanks for keeping me straight.

kwhi43@kc.rr.com:

That's an excellent Martian phase pistol. I understand they can vaporize small mountains Did you get it at at an Isher Weapons Shop?

azsixgun:

Why am I beginning to think I have cracked open a can of worms? You row, I'll bail!

========================

I'm feeling better about my level of expectations.

I hope I don't have to finish out a topstrap in as poor a condition as this one when I get my first exchange! But I do understand now that I need to be prepared to do some finishing and polishing with a dremel and other tools and will be making that investment. I'm NOT paying Jay Strite to sand and polish, he's too valuable for doing the really good stuff like crowning the muzzle and a trigger job and timing job, etc...

FIGURE 08a: Topstrap



FIGURE 08b: Topstrap, (different lighting)



FIGURE 09: Topstrap side view, (thinning and uneven thicknesses due to grinding and poor finish of metal)



The bottom strap needs works also:

FIGURE 10: Bottom strap

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Old April 8, 2010, 09:45 PM   #48
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Hybrid blade/peep sight design

The primary reason my interests lie in the model I'm documenting here is that it has a front blade sight and an adjustable rear sight. Also, there is no V-Groove machined in the topstrap which may make the topstrap a better candidate for a scope as well as making the topstrap stronger. The last facts I figured out here, thanks to the membership for your responses and your knowledge. You make me think and that's good.

The front sight of this revolver is a bit problematic, there is a lot of daylight under the ramp and that's part of the design I realize at this point in my development. I'm wondering if once the revolver is sighted in to some degree should the front sight ramp be sealed. Should something be put underneath the ramp in order to seal that as it is going to be difficult to clean and it could snag on something, etc...

Any ideas as to how to seal the space in between the bottom of the front sight ramp and the top of the barrel?

FIGURE 11: Front Sight daylight, (Arc Welder mask advised!)



FIGURE 12: $2



FIGURE 13: $4



FIGURE 14: $6



As I reviewed this post before saving I noticed the lands inside the barrel look as though they are "hatched" ... they have what looks like horizontal marks across them. Are the lands supposed to be machined this way?

And after some research I'm going to guess that the rifling is "Broach Rifling", at least I hope that's what it is.

And looking into the barrel with even more scrutiny I see this revolver came with a pre-rusted muzzle. Yes, there is a small pocket of rust a little bigger than the tip of an eraser about an inch inside the muzzle. The barrel inside is really dirty, it's got all this black stuff in it ... I wonder what that could be?

Coming next, pictures of the insides of the cylinder chambers.

I believe there is a good possibility that this gun has been fired and more than once.

What am I still doing with this revolver? Why haven't I sent it back for an exchange? Because I'm learning, learning what the market REALLY has to offer ... for FOUR HUNDRED BUCKS.

Last edited by CajunPowder; April 9, 2010 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Learned something!
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Old April 8, 2010, 09:49 PM   #49
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It may indeed be an Uberti barrel, but there could always be an argument as to whether the other parts, (including internals), are Uberti.
This is true about any Italian replica, or for that matter, any gun at all. Not every part of every gun is marked as to the manufacturer. You will typically find only one instance of the manufacturer's mark (it's not a proof mark) on a gun.
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Old April 9, 2010, 12:11 AM   #50
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Location: Arizona
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Wow! I'm pretty disappointed to see those pictures! I'm not really surprised by the uneven topstrap because I do expect these reprocuctions to be slightly closer to kits than say, a Smith and Wesson. I am, however, surprised by the rough finish found on the inside of the top and bottom strap. The chips of metal left in the hole for the rear sight speak to the lack of care that went into making this "top of the line" model. The saving grace is that with a stainless finish, it's easy for a prospective purchaser to finish the finishing job - that would not be the case with a blued model (short of a re-blue).

The fit of the front sight is a travesty that would annoy me to no end! Personally, I wouldn't worry about corrosion of barrel or sight due to the gap, but would clean it with a tooth brush and oil it after each use. I see two options for the gap: 1. re-cut the dovetail so the sight sits lower, or 2. maybe fill the gap with JB Weld. It's not the optimal repair, but it's grey, so it would probably blend with the stainless steel.

As one who is on the verge of making a purchase, I think I will personally rule out a blind purchase of a model with adjustable sights. I'd reconsider if I could personally inspect, but that gap would be a deal breaker for me.

One thing I noticed when I inspected two blued 1858 Remintons mfg'd by Uberti at a local dealer. One was new, old stock (didn't check the date code, but was told they'd had it for some time) and the other was recently placed in inventory. I'm not quite sure how to describe this, but the radius of the arc of the frame immediately ahead of the cylinder was deeper on the new revolver, therefore about four threads of the barrel were exposed. On the older revolver, the radius was shallower so only about two threads of the rear of the barrel showed. I haven't noticed if this is something that often varies on this model, but spotted it because I was comparing the two side by side.

I will say that looking at these pictures does have a chilling effect on my enthusiasm to purchase. My interest was in paying the premium Uberti commands to get away from annoying manufacturing imperfections that are commonly found with the lower priced manufacturers. Perhaps Uberti has increased their quality since 2008 so that a buyer would profit by purchasing a newly manufactured model?
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1858 , bolt , cylinder , pietta , uberti

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