The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 7, 2010, 09:20 AM   #1
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,906
Gun Show hypocrisy?



So I went to a gun show this weekend and I just find this sign very hypocritical especially when there were a few vendors in there promoting CWP permits and training for them. I even overheard one of them telling this guy that most business can't not allow CWs unless they have there sign posted in a official manner ie, so many feet of the ground, size, etc. Am I the only one that thinks this gives anti gunners and people against CWPs more ammo (no pun intended) for there cause?
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:37 AM   #2
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Event insurance liability costs, of insuring for instance10,000 gun owners in a confined space, might make the event too costly to produce for vendors and customers alike. Then maybe you have to throw in the contract for security and the recommendations from the ones charged with providing same.
I don't disagree about how it should be.

In another field with associated events, I have been subjected to all sorts of regs in the interest of safety ranging from "no connected batteries" to requirements for "locking gas caps" and "drained fuel reservoirs" "fire marshall inspections" etc. I think sometimes it is just the price of doing business in a litigious society.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla

Last edited by alloy; March 7, 2010 at 09:47 AM.
alloy is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:45 AM   #3
noyes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2008
Posts: 1,032
Too many new gun owners at the shows maybe ?..........

Gun show man accidentally shot......


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...y+shot&spell=1
noyes is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:47 AM   #4
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
 
Join Date: April 26, 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,649
Quote:
Event insurance liability costs, of insuring for instance10,000 gun owners in a confined space, might make the event too costly to produce for vendors and customers alike. Then maybe you have to throw in the contract for security and the recommendations from the ones charged with providing same.
What insurance company? Go ahead. Don't be shy. Tell me.

Fact: I've been hearing about "the insurance company" for years. The insurance company said this. The insurance company requires that. The insurance company said something or other.

Ready for this?

No one has ever once replied with the name of "the insurance company."

I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment Bigots.
__________________
No tyrant should ever be allowed to die of natural causes.
Standing Wolf is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:50 AM   #5
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
1The insurance company of the event facility demands xyz from:
2The liability policy of the show promoters who demands xyz from:
3Vendors might also be required by to provide their own insurance riders. In my case that would a rider to my shops normal policy if I set a few vehicles inside some auditorium.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:52 AM   #6
Dragon55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 811
Yet 1 more reason I don't frequent gun shows.

My local gun shop has no such sign.
__________________
sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W
Dragon55 is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:54 AM   #7
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,906
Nice try..... I bet you can google any event and somebody has been killed doing it.....lol

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...ter+truck+show

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...&aqi=&aql=&oq=

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...n+killed+by+go

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...en+killed+by+h
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 10:30 AM   #8
alloy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Posts: 1,931
Well I guess when I initially read your post I jumped to a conclusion based on patronizing a public event yet posting about the admission policy, obviously I was wrong. Apologies.
__________________
Quote:
The uncomfortable question common to all who have had revolutionary changes imposed on them: are we now to accept what was done to us just because it was done?
Angelo Codevilla
alloy is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 10:33 AM   #9
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 4,130
The Gun Show in my town used to be held in the Civic Center. A man bought a automatic pistol, clips and ammo, in the Gun Show. Immediately exiting the gun show door, in the hallway, he loads the pistol with a full magazine and cuts the plastic lock tie.

I don’t know how that caused the negligent discharge, but somehow the lock tie got in the way of something. The pistol discharged into the man’s abdomen and the bullet went through the man’s spine.

He is now in a wheel chair and has a colostomy bag.

The anti gunners at city hall banned gun shows at the civic center. There is no alternative large structure in my city.

So, darn right keep your stupid guns empty at a Gun Show.
Slamfire is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 10:49 AM   #10
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
Our local show went to signs after a CHL idiot fired a round into someone. I asked and the show manager said it was a liabiity issue and he regretted it.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 11:01 AM   #11
noyes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2008
Posts: 1,032
I for 1 agree with the policy...because if someone shot me I would not know it was an accident and I Would Return Fire.

Tooooo many people not paying attention to what they are doing at the gun shows. Many accidentally shootings at gun shows do not make the news.

People pick up guns off the tables and aim them where ever they want . Most of the time at other people. (almost grab a rifle out of one of those idiots hands and was going to beat him with it, yes it was pointed at me)

Some walk around with there gun for sale , not careing where the muzzle is pointed.


Gun safety
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

Be aware that certain types of guns and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions.

ETC.

Last edited by noyes; March 7, 2010 at 11:19 AM.
noyes is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 11:09 AM   #12
retiredcoasty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2009
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 140
Around these parts, if one brings a loaded firearm to a gun show, the guards at the entrance takes you ammo and returns it to you upon your departure. I have always believed that the reason for this is insurance and legal issues. But here in the People’s Republic of Massachusetts, I am amazed that we can even attend a gun show! People that conceal carry are somehow evil or macho.
retiredcoasty is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:03 PM   #13
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
I don't do business with anti-Second Amendment Bigots.
I assume you are posting off a home made computer using Linux

WildwaitdidntintelgivetothebradysAlaska TM

PS...its generally due to the requirements of the venue
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:08 PM   #14
fisherman66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2005
Location: Rhome, TX
Posts: 4,641
I'm not sure about other states, but I don't believe that sign include the proper notification to provide a criminal trespassing charge in TX if violated.
__________________
la plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas!
fisherman66 is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:10 PM   #15
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
It's hard to fault a gun show manager if the other choice is going out of business.

Should the show cease because it can't sell guns without NICS checks by the FFLs?

The show I went to probabyl sold hundreds of guns at reasonable prices. Is that not a greater good then not having the show because of the sign.

Remember the causal event was a CHL who shot someone. Gun show bigot or gun show idiot - hmmm?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:25 PM   #16
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,074
Instead of screaming, bitching, crying and speculating here, why don't you get in touch with the show promoter and ask exactly why they have adopted that policy?

Maybe he can even tell you who carries the insurance policy for the show, instead of asking asking alloy to do a Karnak the Magnificient?

Back in the 1980s and early 1990s my family promoted a series of rare book, antique, and paper shows in Pennsylvania.

IIRC we had several insurers over the years. We worked through insurance brokers as it was easier to find specialized business insurance that way. Many event type insurers don't underwrite home, auto, or life policies, they only underwrite business insurance.

Most policies have long lists of exclusions and special requirements. One year we played hell getting insurance that would allow our dealers to have bookshelves in their booths. Book show, so a bookshelf is logical, right?

Problem is, a year or two before, some dumbass pulled a bookshelf over on himself at a show in, IIRC, New Jersey or Delaware and had won a rather impressive settlement from that show's insurance carrier, so the other carriers in the Mid-Atlantic added a policy exclusion.

There have been MORE than enough accidental/negligent shootings at gunshows over the years to make the insurance angle more than plausible.

But, if you want to know why YOUR show chooses to exclude YOU and everyone else to carries a concealed handgun, why don't YOU ask them YOURself?
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:28 PM   #17
LastRebel70
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: tennessee
Posts: 20
Here in Tennessee all gun shows have this posted. You are not even allowed to bring a loaded clip inside.
LastRebel70 is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 12:50 PM   #18
Jim March
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 1999
Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA
Posts: 7,321
Hrm. Here's a major problem as I see it...eventually, somebody with their CCW piece on 'em sees some kewl new accessory for their carry gun, and has to "size it up".

Mind you, the PLAN was to leave it holstered, which would have been OK. But wow, look at those grips. Or those sights...hey, I'll bet those fit the dovetail on my piece! Or "what a cool holster". Take your pick. And the piece that was supposed to be holstered is now...not.

Now, I've actually faced this situation. Been someplace, never intended to take the gun out, but for some reason we're going to look at it. I have an advantage in that I carry a Ruger SA with a "new model" action. So I explain exactly what I'm going to do: pull it partways out, muzzle still in a safe direction, hammer down, finger off trigger, I'm going to open the loading gate, slide the base pin out as I draw and pull the cylinder out right before the muzzle clears leather. With no cylinder in the gun, it's very obviously "clear". And we can go from there. But very few guns offer this ability and to be honest, not many people think to be that careful.

Plus there's the fact that gun shows are crawling with cops...I no longer have a problem with loaded carry bans at gun shows.
__________________
Jim March
Jim March is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 01:08 PM   #19
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,906
I asked a simple question does any else find this hypocrital- Mike why don't you go take your meds you might feel better. First I am not talking about the general public we are talking about CWP holders who were suppose to have gone through the proper training and testing to have a CWP and bring it into public place. I cann just see the CNN reporter now talking to someone from the NRA "so you guys promote CWPs and say that CWP holders are safe and responseable and expect business to allow CWs, even guns show mangers don't trust CWP holders. Do you guys find this hypocritcal?"
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 01:18 PM   #20
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,732
Some states don't have training requirements or testing.

Yes, it is a problem and seems contradict the RKBA. However, here's the question - if it is the case that such signs are necessary to run the show, should the owner close his or her business for avoid the scent of being a hypocrite?

Is compromise ever allowable on a gun rights issue?

What's your take on that?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 01:38 PM   #21
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,906
I am not saying don't have the show for not looking like a hypocrite.
All I am saying is that there is a tad bit of hyporocy for a gun show to have sign out like that
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 01:43 PM   #22
Buzzcook
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 5,630
Their show, their rules. When you have your own show, you can have your own rules.
Buzzcook is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 02:13 PM   #23
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
I must ask... why would anyone need a loaded gun at a gun show? Why would anyone want a loaded gun at a gun show? Maybe I'm just thinking of all the gun shows I've been to. Wall to wall people. Hundreds of vendors, and thousands of customers at a big show. Tens of vendors, and hundreds of customers at a small local show.

An A/D, or N/D would undoubtedly hit someone. The venue or promoter should provide adiquate security. I went to a small, local show today. They have an honor system... If you have a firearm... present it unloaded for inspection, and ty-wrap. Or dont. I personally prefer to err of the side of safety.

I dont think it's hypocritical to require patrons to be unloaded at a gun show. I think it's common sense.

I'm curious to know what yall folks think could happen at a gun show that would require the use of DPF. Given the very very limited field of fire.

All that having been said... I also believe that the promotor, or the venue should provide safe re-loading stations available to patrons to load for the street before leaving the protection of the venue.
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 02:27 PM   #24
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 11,487
Insurance the boon and bane of our modern world

We don't have shows at our county fairgrounds anymore. Because of the insurance requirements. Nobody ever got hurt, but our local deptuy DA (so we were told) decided that all vendors at the show had to carry a minimum of $1 million liability, for the three days of the show.

ALL Vendors. The T-shirt guy, the hot dog guy, the coin guy, the handmade neclace lady, and of course, all the gun and ammo guys, even if you were not a business, just a collector, buying & selling from a table.

For most of us, the couple hundred dollars that the insurance companies wanted for the policy was more than the profit we expected to make from the show. SO, we don't go.

Now, the shows are at other venues. And ALL firearms (CCW or not) much be safety checked at the door. Period, no exceptions. If you have issues with this, either stay home, or leave your CCW behind when you go in.

I'd rather have the show, and put up with not being armed while inside that not have a show. No right is absolute, and if you aren't willing to be flexible about at least some things, well, I guess your life is going to be pretty...stiff.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 02:48 PM   #25
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 36,074
I owe you an apology, Palmetto-Pride, I thought it was you who subsequently demanded identification of the insurance company.

You did not.

My extreme bad.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:47 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14124 seconds with 9 queries