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Old March 25, 2010, 09:07 PM   #1
Lavid2002
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Proof that slide release on an emtpy chamber is bad....lets see some

I thinks it a whole bunch of something about nothing....



Anyone have any proof its bad? (PIX!)


What say ye?
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Old March 25, 2010, 10:12 PM   #2
Sevens
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I say shooting yourself in the foot is probably a bad idea, but I don't have any pictures to prove it.

Bro... if you want to slap your pistols silly, HAVE AT IT. You can dip 'em in a bucket of snot, too. I doubt anyone has proof that it's not a good idea.
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Old March 26, 2010, 12:14 AM   #3
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Proof? We don't need no proof! I don't have to show you any stinkin' proof!

Geez, Sevens, lighten up. A fellow member asks reasonably for proof of something widely accepted as axiomatic and you answer like he insulted your favorite hound.

To answer the question, no, I don't have any proof and I have heard of no one who does.

However, when you look at the gun in operation it is pretty plain to see that letting a slide slam forward on an empty chamber, makes it come to a complete stop without benefit of any braking action or padding of any kind. When you let the slide slam forward with a magazine and ammunition in place, there are several energy-absorbing events that soften the impact to those parts of the gun that stop the forward motion of the slide. 1) stripping the next round from the magazine. 2) running the round up the feed ramp. 3) driving the bullet into the chamber (the energy absorbed by this action is very small, I will admit).

The softening effect of these braking actions is slight, but they are there.

Now, take a look at the surfaces that actually stop the slide's forward motion. The barrel link and the shaft (part of the slide stop) it rides on. The underside of the slide where it mates with the locking lugs of the barrel. The upper side of the barrel where is mates with the locking lugs in the slide. (I am thinking 1911 here, but other designs have similar parts.)

The leverage on that barrel link is pretty high and its bearing surfaces are small; and every impact a metal surface gets tends to work harden it and make it brittle.

The difference between 20,000 cycles of shooting where there is always a round "cushioning" the closure and 20,000 cycles of snapping closed without that cushion is probably slight. But I am pretty sure (with only the proof of my analytical mind) that there is a difference.

Eventually the debate will come down to a matter of degree. How much of a difference is significant? That is aside from the fact that a bit of battering likely will not make a catastrophic (photogenic) failure. More likely the damage will show up as progressively looser fit and will accumulate gradually, which does not make for startling pictures.

You need more proof? Sorry, I am satisfied with my observations and reason.

Do I come unglued if someone lets a slide slam home on an empty chamber? No, but I do ask them not to do it again.

Now, I will take the other side.

How many semi-automatic guns don't lock their slide/bolt back when they run out of ammo? I know of one EXTREMELY popular handgun. The Ruger Mark I. Of course, that was Bill Ruger's first design. Maybe he made a mistake. For the Mk II and III he added a stop. But he didn't call back the Mk I's already sold, or even retrofit the unsold inventory.

The difference in impact energy whether there is a round in the works or not is negligible. The slide slams on the same surfaces and nearly as hard.

For my money, it is six of one and Allllllmost a half-dozen of the other. And reasoning it out is enough proof for me. I don't need pictures. And less that several thousand would be anecdotal anyway.

Speaking of half-dozens, I have a similar question of the "conventional knowledge" that "everyone" knows.

Why do revolver fanatics get so excited when you "wrist flip" a double action revolver's cylinder closed, but say nothing at all about "popping" the cylinder open with excessive energy.

I saw a guy do that to one of my revolvers in a gun shop (I had taken it into the shop in search of grips and he checked it for emptiness.) He popped it open with more energy than I have ever seen anyone close a revolver. If I had closed on of the stores guns with that much force, I'd have been banned for life.

"Proof? We don't need no proof! I don't have to show you any stinkin' proof!"

(paraphrased from the 1948 film The Treasure of the Sierra Madre with Humphrey Bogart. In one of the scenes in the movie a Mexican bandit leader, Gold Hat (played by Alfonso Bedoya), is trying to convince Fred C. Dobbs (played by Bogart) and company that they are the Federales.
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stinking_badges


Remember, only believe half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for what you get from the internet. Even this post. Maybe especially this post.

Do your own independent, confirming research when ANYONE gives you new facts on the web.

Also remember, even the idiotic stuff might have a kernel of truth buried in there somewhere.


Happy trails, and don't sweat the small stuff

Lost Sheep

P.S. Photos as proof are often over-rated. Consider this, "He looked at the 27 8"x10" colored glossy photos with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one was and he looked at the seein' eye dog. And then he started to cry. Because he realized the Judge wasn't gonna look at his colored glossy photos." (Arlo Guthrie, Alice's Restaurant)

Last edited by Lost Sheep; March 26, 2010 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Add the battering comment (paragraph 8)
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Old March 26, 2010, 01:21 AM   #4
Mike38
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I read somewhere that the ultimate test of a trigger job on a semi auto pistol is to let the slide close on an empty chamber. If the hammers drops, the trigger job is unsafe. After I did a trigger job to my M1911, I bit my lip and tried it, once. The hammer didn’t drop, so I guess I did all right. I only did it once, and I don’t think I’d make a habit out of it that’s for sure.
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Old March 26, 2010, 03:29 AM   #5
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This question falls in line with, "is it OK to dry-fire weapons?". As opposed to dry-firing, there's no real reason or benefit in releasing a slide or a bolt on an empty chamber, besides perhaps trying to look cool. I'll agree with Lost Sheep in that there is a buffering effect when there's a round being stripped off a magazine, similar to the firing pin impacting a primer. Although I don't believe you're going to cause any significant damage to most firearms in doing so, I personally don't follow this practice. It's like the saying, "take care of it, and it'll take care of you".
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Old March 26, 2010, 03:44 AM   #6
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Do it in WWG and I'll give ya a butt chewin.

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Old March 26, 2010, 06:08 AM   #7
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Like many people, I doubt there is any adverse effect on the gun, but it makes me cringe when I hear it. I suspect the forces exerted on the gun's individual parts is much higher in the rearward recoil event, whereas the energy in the forward motion is more constant and mostly limited by the spring rating.

It's more the sound I object to. Would I rather write on a chalkboard while dragging a fingernail or not? The chalk doesn't care but my ears do.
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Old March 26, 2010, 07:19 AM   #8
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I doubt it causes any noteworthy damage but I have noticed that it seems to be more difficult to release the slide by pressing the slide release lever, with or without a magazine in place, as opposed to pulling back slightly on the slide. In that case you would still have to press the slide release lever if the magazine were in place.

On a different note, the manual for a Ruger P345 states that dry firing is harmless as long as the magazine is in place. I wonder why?

None of the above causes nearly as much stress to the firearm as actually firing it.
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Old March 26, 2010, 07:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
I say shooting yourself in the foot is probably a bad idea, but I don't have any pictures to prove it.

Bro... if you want to slap your pistols silly, HAVE AT IT. You can dip 'em in a bucket of snot, too. I doubt anyone has proof that it's not a good idea.
And here, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call a classic believer. When proof is requested of a given event that is contrary to what the believer believes for which he has no proof, the believer resorts to false analogy. Because he knows other things to be bad for which he has no proof, then this must also be bad even though he has no proof.

The threat of a butt chewin' is good as well. No proof, but then again if you do it in WWG, you probably aren't doing it with your own property. Their guns, their rules.

I can say that I have dropped the slide on an empty chamber hundreds of times in gun school dry firing practice. If there was any ill effect, it has gone unnoticed.

I have also noticed that people never seem proclaim the alarm of gun damage when the last round is fired without a magazine in the gun or where the magazine fails to drive the slide lock to lock back the slide after firing the last round. These are instances where the slide returned to battery without the cushioning effect of chambering a round.
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Old March 26, 2010, 08:11 AM   #10
greyson97
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I was told not to do it to my own gun in a gun shop cause I had a nice 1911 that came with custom features. The gun store employee explained to me I had a nice trigger on my 1911 and if i continued to release the slide with the slide stop lever, it would make my trigger heavier

he explained some stuff to me, but I didn't remember/understand what he was saying. he also said if i wanted to keep doing that, i should press the trigger slightly, when i activate the slide release

he could have not gone to the effort especially since it wasnt his gun (i was there to process my FFL from buds)

theres no need to let your slide slam shut on an empty chamber when you can lower it gently.

also not flipping and slamming shut the cylinder of a revolver.

I used to do both things before i became "educated" about those topics
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Old March 26, 2010, 08:13 AM   #11
Sevens
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Ahhh, would I still be a classic believer if I did it when I was younger, but then thought better of it as the years have gone by? Would I rather be a learned believer?

First of all, if I were a classic believer in this thread, I would have to take the opposite approach since the suggestion in the OP is that it does absolutely no harm whatsoever.

His assumptions (and your assumptions) are nothing more than bits of anecdotal evidence. My brother drives everywhere, and has driven most all of his 48 years without a seat belt. He's never been hurt or killed in a seat belt related incident. Furthermore, he was actually ejected from a car in a rollover where a seat belt would have killed him when the roof caved in.

Thus, my brother, the classic believer has shown us that seat belt use in automobiles is not only useless, but quite harmful. All of his evidence is clear and he's living, walking proof of it.

Quote:
Double Naught Spy
Here, ladies and gentlemen, is the classic obnoxious poster, happy to come off like a know-it-all schmuck rather than to simply state his opinion... at whatever cost, the first being often being politeness.
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:25 AM   #12
Lavid2002
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It seems valid that a gun goes through much more abuse when being fired in terms of force on moving parts, than when being closed on an empty chamber....how about rifles? I slam my ar15 closed on an empty chamber all the time and that has more force than a pistol (How many lb. is that buffer spring anyways? Seems like much more than a 1911 main spring.



I think I will be more conscious with other peoples guns, but with mine I will continue to close the slide on an empty chamber *When I get my pistol that is : )* and flip revolvers closed :P


My store says nothing about doing either... When I let someone handle a gun...I tell them to close it up and see if it feels right for them. There about to drop 500 bucks on a handgun. If it breaks from being used its a POS and needs to go back to the factory. They need to see how it works and see if it feels right for them....play away : )
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:41 AM   #13
Don P
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Wouldn't want to slam the door on my fingers, or whip a revolver cylinder closed by snapping my wrist to the right, so I ain't gonna slam the slide home on a empty chamber. No photo proof just my personal opinion for what ever it may be worth.
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:45 AM   #14
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Quote:
How many semi-automatic guns don't lock their slide/bolt back when they run out of ammo? I know of one EXTREMELY popular handgun. The Ruger Mark I.
Neither does the LCP
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:53 AM   #15
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Is there any benefit to be gained from letting the slide go on an empty chamber? I guess maybe during training, which, I suppose we do 1,000's of times on military M-9's and they don't seem to suffer.

But my own gun, I don't like the sound it makes and I see no benefit to doing it at home, so it is a practice that I don't engage in, regardless of the absence of proof that it is harmful.

and I completely do not understand the personal offense that some seem to have taken regarding the question... geez you would think he asked for proof that your kids are yours.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:02 AM   #16
Frank Ettin
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Feel free to let the slide slam shut on an empty chamber on your gun all you want. Just don't do it with mine.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:05 AM   #17
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Sevens, so I see that you still have no information to support your point. Anecdotal information is better than no information. I have yet to see a person post here or elsewhere that can say that their gun was damaged by letting the slide close under its own power. No doubt it is a commonly held beleif, but commonly held beliefs without actual proof is really nothing more than faith-based assumptions.

Okay, so you know that letting the slide release and go into battery on its own is bad for your gun, but have no proof. So what are you basing your claim on? Your false analogy with a bucket of snot isn't even remotely relevant. Your seltbelt claim is a false analogy as well. You cannot substantiate your claim with irrelevant analogies.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:08 AM   #18
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You are absolutely correct, Double Naught Spy, and I thank you very much for saying all of that without being a swinging bag.

I have also not ever seen a revolver with a bent crane from flicking it closed like they do in the movies, but I don't do that either.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:22 AM   #19
Mike Irwin
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I've had two nationally known gunsmiths who made a living out of building 1911s tell me flat out that releasing the slide on an empty chamber is potentially damaging to the firearm.

Mac Scott, and one working for the USAMTU building guns for Army shooters. At least I think he was Army. It's been many years.

I'll take their word for it over your impressions.

Ultimately, though, if someone one wants to be that much of a brain dead imbecile that they would abuse an expensive piece of equipment in such an obviously preventable fashion, who am I to tell them that they're being a retard?
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:27 AM   #20
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All right guys! Let's simmer down a bit.

If anyone has the actual proof that Lavid2002 asked for, please post it. Conversely, if you have proof that it doesn't hurt the pistol, post that as well. If you don't have any of that proof, don't post. It's simple.

In other words, the personal snipping between members stops now.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:36 AM   #21
noyes
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PROOF







Attached Images
File Type: jpg chamber 001.jpg (34.3 KB, 664 views)
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:42 AM   #22
greyson97
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what am i looking at? where should i be looking?
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:50 AM   #23
noyes
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The chamber of a 50 bmg &

Proof that slide release on an emtpy chamber is bad...nick , gouges , high metal , burrs.




.

Last edited by noyes; March 26, 2010 at 10:56 AM.
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Old March 26, 2010, 11:00 AM   #24
greyson97
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where is the damage? i have untrained eyes
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Old March 26, 2010, 11:07 AM   #25
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