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Old March 24, 2010, 04:34 PM   #1
larstusor
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.357 110 gr. JHP

Rather than using .38 spec. (regular or +P) in a .357 snubbie for self defense, what's wrong with the old Winchester .357 110gr JHP. It seems that the round would cause less recoil and blast than other .357's but still have more "power" than the .38's. Am I wrong about this? You just don't see much written about the 110 gr. round and it apparently is not popular. Anyone have a good explanation about why this is not a commonly used self defense round?
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Old March 24, 2010, 04:42 PM   #2
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110 gr. in a .357 mag.? That's a waste of a good revolver. I used to carry a snubbie .357 mag. and it was loaded with 158 gr. JHP. If you're gonna carry a Big Boom gun, take advantage of it and load some major hurt ammo.
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Old March 24, 2010, 04:45 PM   #3
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There's nothing wrong with it. It makes the deep penetration crowd have vapors but it's basically the same 110 grain .38 +P+ load that the Secret Service used for years with good results.

Flash can be be a little extreme but otherwise it's a relatively easy-handling and affordable load. With the mid-range 125 grain loads from Remington and Cor-Bon and new short barrel loads like Speer's 135 grainer and Buffalo Bore's mild 158 grainer, the 110 looks a little staid but it's still good.
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Old March 24, 2010, 04:55 PM   #4
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It's not a bad loading as it delivers ballistics similar to a 9mm +P. The main disadvantages are that it will have less penetration than a heavier bullet and will likely shoot low in fixed-sighted revolvers (most .357's come from the factory sighted in for either 125grn or 158grn bullets). Also, very light revolvers like the S&W 360PD often have trouble with very light bullets jumping crimp under recoil. S&W actually reccomends against the use of bullets lighter than 120grn in their Scandium J-Frames.
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Old March 24, 2010, 05:17 PM   #5
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It's not really worth the effort, .357 Mag should be at least 125 to 158 gr to take advantage of the case potential.
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Old March 24, 2010, 05:26 PM   #6
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Looks like those who don't like the load are comparing the round to heavier .357 loads, rather than .38 spl loads. I think the the 110 gr. load works pretty well if you don't want all the recoil of a heavier bullet but want more energy and velocity than a .38 spl. I have carried the 110 gr. loads in my 3 inch Model 60 and still have a couple of boxes. The only downside over a .38 spl +P load is probably an increase in flash at low lights (never fired mine in the dark).
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Old March 24, 2010, 05:55 PM   #7
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If this overhyped, overblown overpenetration issue is of concern, use 'em

110gr .357 Magnum suffers from shallow terminal penetration due to the fact that you're overdriving the bullet's construction causing fragmentation, resulting in 40-50% recovered bullet weight. The 110gr .357 bullet also suffers from poor barrier and intermediate target penetration as well. If the bad guy puts his arms up to block the incoming shot, it likely won't penetrate deep enough into the torso after expending all its energy on the bad guy's arm.

90-100% recovered bullet weight is ideal.



ps - i've heard only about the dismal performance of the 'Treasury' .38 Special 110gr +P+ JHP, with smart agents switching to different unauthorized cartridges other than that one
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Old March 24, 2010, 07:05 PM   #8
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Seems to me that the round also gained a bad rep for exacerbating problems like top strap flame cutting and forcing cone erosion. Light weight, high velocity .357 bullets with fast burning powder loads just seem more trouble then they are worth, IMO.

In .357 loads, I stick to bullets of 145gr or heavier. For SD loads, I still prefer 125-130gr .38spl+p load, since I feel I have better control of followup shots with that then .357.
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Old March 24, 2010, 07:32 PM   #9
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One thing to keep in mind is that the bulk of commercial ammo sold as self defense ammo in the service caliber rounds for the last 15 or so years has been built to the Justice Dept./FBI specs of 12-14" of penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin. This is irregardless of bullet weight or velocity. A 110 gr. JHP bullet, of currant production, is no more likely to break up any more than a 125 gr. or 158 gr. will. This has been the case going back to the late 90s.

CCI Blazer offers a useful 158 gr. JHP in .357 that does about 1100 fps from a 4" barrel. This produces less felt recoil, noise and muzzle blast than some of the hotter 125 gr. loads. As a result for many shooters of lighter weight hand guns it allows for faster and more accurate shot placement. You may want to give it a try.

Try a number of different rounds and loads from your gun and see which you favor best. Modern premium self defense ammo in general uses bullets built for the velocities that the round runs at and is designed to both penetrate and expand at optimal depths, they are built to do it anyway.

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Old March 24, 2010, 07:35 PM   #10
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Those have maybe less recoil but still plenty of impressive blast effect at the starting end. I guess performance would depend on whether the makers have upgraded the bullet to match the load better since I believe the criticism might be from old loads? Maybe not the best load in a big gun but I am sure it does better than the beloved 380 loads that so many people are searching and hoarding for their mini pistols while tsk-tsking the light magnum. I bet something like a Hornady XTP type bullet would not fall apart so easily in a load like that.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:21 PM   #11
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I have used a 357 with 110 grain HP ammo to shoot a 3 lb woodchuck at 10 yards. The bullet stopped in the animal and didnt make it to the offside skin. A police officer used the same load and had to shoot a bad guy. At close range the officer shot the bad guy in the belt buckle. The bullet stopped on the buckle and the officer said the perp had a very large bruise from the encounter.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:26 PM   #12
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Just use DPX .357. It's mucho better and no where near the blast of most 125 gr loads.
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Old March 24, 2010, 08:27 PM   #13
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110 gr would beat 38 spcl, but the 125 gr is not much heavier. A hot loaded 125 gr .357 mag is possibly THE best SD handgun load on the planet. Why not go with that?
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Old March 24, 2010, 09:25 PM   #14
larstusor
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Thanks for all the input. I've got a few boxes of the 110's that heve been around for a while. Perhaps I should relegate them for use in my old Puma, 1892 carbine and use the Winchester 145 gr. Silvertips I have for my handguns.
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Old March 24, 2010, 09:55 PM   #15
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The rap against the 110 gr. loads, that they break apart, is about 30 years old. The old story of the cop shooting a fella in the belt buckle and the round not penetrating the fella deeply is about 25 years old (in fact in that incident the fella was stopped by that round). The 110 gr. load was one of the approved loads for use by the U.S. Border Patrol in the years before they were forced to standardize on the .40 S&W. They had no problems with it. The early problems with the rounds were due to bullets meant for slower speeds going faster than the bullet was built for and thus not penetrating deeply enough. This problem was corrected over 15 years ago. If you have old ammo do not expect it to be as useful as new.

A grain is 1/7000 of a pound. So the difference between a 110 gr. load and a 125 gr. is not all that much. The difference in felt recoil is also not that much. More will depend on the specific load than on the weight per se in the 110-125 gr. range.

The 125 gr. loads (and there are many different loads at 125 gr.s) are not magical in my experience or anyone else's. There is no reliable information that they are.

Choose the load that you shoot best from your gun.

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Old March 25, 2010, 08:36 AM   #16
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Secret Service agents going off the reservation with unauthorized loads? Please tell us more.
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Old March 25, 2010, 02:45 PM   #17
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I guess I have been misinformed. I thought the 158 would have less recoil due to being recommended in an older k frame. I was told the 125 were too fast and would cause barrel issues. I guess the 110 would be faster still but would reduce penetration. This thread says it makes the 357 a super hot 38 yet then it wont do the job. I was under the impression that a 38 would pretty much do the job if you did yours.
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Old March 25, 2010, 03:26 PM   #18
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Quote:
I thought the 158 would have less recoil due to being recommended in an older k frame. I was told the 125 were too fast and would cause barrel issues. I guess the 110 would be faster still but would reduce penetration. This thread says it makes the 357 a super hot 38 yet then it wont do the job. I was under the impression that a 38 would pretty much do the job if you did yours.
First, commercially loaded .38 spl +P ammo simply will not go as fast as .357 magnum. The .38 spl +P is a good defensive round, but it is not a .357 magnum. You also have to remember that velocity and bullet weight are only part of the equation. Bullet construction and design is important. Gold Dots (and other bonded bullets) will penetrate adequately and expand reliably at lower velocities than older style hollow points. They also hold together much better when passing through barriers, etc. than old style hollow points.

Second, the only time to worry about a lighter bullet in the K-frames is if you are shooting lighter weight bullets loaded to magnum velocities. Don't worry about shooting .38 spl +P light bullets from a K-frame magnum. The old Model 19 magnums experienced flame cutting of the top strap and eroson of the forcing cone when a lot of the lighter magnum rounds were shot through it.

The modern .357 J-frames don't have this problem, though, as mentioned by another poster, you do have to watch for bullet setback in scandium J-frames when shooting light weight bullets at magnum velocities.
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Old March 25, 2010, 03:41 PM   #19
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I was under the assumption that I should only shoot 158 and up loads out of my Model 13 K frame. Im good with that. Im good with that. I normally carry it with a M38 in my pocket.
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Old March 25, 2010, 04:02 PM   #20
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My 640 is loaded and ready with Hornady CD 357's, but when I can't find them I like CorrBon 110's - they have much lower recoil and have been very accurate out of my snub. Just my 2cents
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Old March 25, 2010, 05:19 PM   #21
KyJim
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I was under the assumption that I should only shoot 158 and up loads out of my Model 13 K frame. Im good with that. Im good with that. I normally carry it with a M38 in my pocket.
If shooting .38 spl or .38 spl +P, it doesn't matter.
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Old March 25, 2010, 06:19 PM   #22
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Winchester 110 Gr. .357 ammo

I ordered 200 rounds of the WWB 110 Gr .357 magnum sometime back, as it was cheap, less than $30.00 a box. Shot 100 rounds out of my Taurus 617 at an indoor range, that is not as well lit as I think it could be. My impressions were the recoil was very mild, it shot low and left, and I did not notice any noticeable muzzle blast. Based on my limited experience I would only consider this for range ammo.
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Old March 25, 2010, 06:22 PM   #23
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110 gr would beat 38 spcl, but the 125 gr is not much heavier. A hot loaded 125 gr .357 mag is possibly THE best SD handgun load on the planet. Why not go with that?
+1. About 25 years ago, I chronographed the 125gr JHP for R-F-W to see if the lived up to the 1425fps +/- claimed from a 4". The Fed and Win were consistently close to the money. The Rem. consistently hit 1800fps+/-. IMPOSSIBLE you say. Me too. Come to find out the excessive muzzle blast from the Rem. was zipping across the sensors before the bullet. Backing up a few feet, the Rem was consistently between 1400-1450. From then on, I carried Fed or Win. 125s in my .357s for social work.
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Old March 25, 2010, 07:08 PM   #24
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The Rem. consistently hit 1800fps+/-.
Well that WOULD be something! M1 Carbine from a 4 inch wheelgun!
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Old March 25, 2010, 07:23 PM   #25
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What you really want is extreme excessive painful recoil, a huge flaming fireball shooting out of the muzzle and cylinder gap, and ringing ears for a week. Whatever else happens does not matter.
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