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Old November 22, 2012, 11:05 PM   #76
crazycrave
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I didn't know they made a 300 Win Mag in a handgun? hmm...
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Old November 23, 2012, 10:02 AM   #77
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10mm or 45+P?

I don't frequent any wilderness areas where there are cougars,bears,etc-however I do have a Glock 20SF and some various 45 ACP's.If you are going to shoot lead rounds from a Glock,you should invest in a conventionally rifled aftermarket barrel assembly.Lone Wolf makes a drop in one that is not very expensive.Lead rounds will damage the Glock barrels.The full size 20SF handles 10mm recoil very well-I have the S&W Model 22-4 revolver in 45 ACP and the recoil from hot +P's is stout in that firearm.
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Old November 23, 2012, 10:06 AM   #78
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I'd go with the 45 & 255 grain Buffalo Bore loads for woods work.
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:49 PM   #79
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Quote:
I didn't know they made a 300 Win Mag in a handgun? hmm...
Good thing you asked. I've seen a custom 300 Win Mag pistol. Plenty of 308 and 223 pistols out there and I have both in pistol caliber and a 45acp and 10mm.
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Old November 23, 2012, 03:57 PM   #80
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Cougars are built for speed and stealth. They're not nearly as armored as a Sherman tank. Uh I mean bear. I think either round properly placed will do the job. That being said, I prefer 700+ ft lbs vs 400+ foot pounds any day of the week. I don't care that the hole is a few thousandths smaller as long as the bullet isn't an FMJ.
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Old November 23, 2012, 11:27 PM   #81
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.45 is better.
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:08 PM   #82
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I would use hollow points on lions not hard casts. A lion is not much denser if not less dense than some people. A hard cast is massively overkill and would just be throwing a wad of lead at it. Id rather have something that expands fast and does major damage. Youll maybe get off one shot in a cougar attack so better make it count. When I hike and bike where I know there are lion I take either my 10mm with Hornady JHP's or my .357 with starfire HPs. From a veterinary standpoint I can say your average good HP will be more than enough from either of those hand cannons. Honestly I wouldnt be afraid to use a hot loaded .380 let alone a 9 mil on a cat.
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Old November 25, 2012, 11:51 PM   #83
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^ Any decent hunting bullet will work. Heavy, not light. They are tougher than you realize.
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Old November 26, 2012, 01:31 AM   #84
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I read some had questioned whether you saw a lion.I have seen a lion on a hiking trail.
As development and habitat encroachment occur,combined with the fact they are less shot at,the lions are bolder,less reclusive.

We have had one in town near a school,on the edgeof town,a friends kids saw one in the yard.

I find deer on my street and in my yard.If you see deer,there may well be a lion in the area.

I found footage on you tube of a mountain lion trying to take a man.It was trying to go up his back to his neck.Accounts I have read of attacks suggest that is typical.

What I am suggesting:If you see a lion in front of you in time to use a handgun,Its splitting hairs between a 10mm and a 45 ACP,IMO.Having either will work.I used to carry a 5 shot .44 spl snubbie and was comfortable.

What you may want to consider is the one that is on your back,clawing and biting.A big Kabar or equivalent might be more deployable(don't leave the gun behind,of course!)

Not trying to have Tarzan fantasies,just ,like rattlesnakes,the ones you see are not so much the problem,.Its the ones you don't see that are a problem.

Whether this is legit or staged,it gives you an idea

http://youtu.be/_tgZmh2dkVI

This link will take you to a list of mountain lion/human attacks 2001-2010

http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm

Last edited by HiBC; November 26, 2012 at 02:18 AM.
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Old November 26, 2012, 02:09 AM   #85
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The .45 ACP +P is a capable, deadly round.

The 10mm is moreso.

10mm.
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Old November 26, 2012, 08:23 AM   #86
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It's a pistol. Any difference in the calibers you're talking about is so minuscule as to be irrelevant. Whether the cougar stops or not is going to depend on your skill at that point.

My G20 and G21 have seen nothing but lead for over 10 years with the stock barrels, please no one tell them that they MUST have an aftermarket barrel to shoot lead!
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Old November 27, 2012, 12:22 AM   #87
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Now I want to know what the pros and cons to each of these calibers are.
10mm has a flatter trajectory, you can potentially shoot farther accurately... I am more comfortable out to 100 yds with my 10mm than my 45. Criminals are more a concern for me than cougars and black bears which up close either caliber will do but a criminal with a rifle is a problem outdoors.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:26 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koda
10mm has a flatter trajectory, you can potentially shoot farther accurately... I am more comfortable out to 100 yds with my 10mm than my 45. Criminals are more a concern for me than cougars and black bears which up close either caliber will do but a criminal with a rifle is a problem outdoors.

"My little batch of reloads was depleting so I sorted out five more, this time in nickel Federal cases, and moved my hunting chair back to the 100 yard line. I used the top six inches of the box as an aiming point, crossed my legs and used my left knee as a rest as I fired from a seated position. I lost one round off the left edge of the box, but the four I didn’t flub made a nice little cluster right in the middle of the box."



Missouri Bullet’s 225 grain Flathead for the .45 Auto
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Old November 27, 2012, 02:20 AM   #89
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Don't overlook the effect of adrenaline. If you have never had to shoot at an enemy soldier or an attacking large animal, then all else is out the window, IMO. The reaction of shooting at something that is one or seconds away from killing you cannot be duplicated at a range. Short and sweet: if you are comparing between 10mm and .45ACP. I'd go with the gun that you are totally and instinctively comfortable with, that you can load, fire, rack, clear and disassemble in pitch black darkness. The gun you can use as easily as your toothbrush or car key is the one to go with, given that your range of caliber choices is as you describe.

Your world changes forever once your life truly is on the line, right then, right now. But it's somewhat like riding a bicycle. You don't know what that means until you've been there. Not trying to be macho or a preacher. I am overly wordy - choose the effective caliber you most enjoy shooting and are most comfortable with, especially on short notice. A high-powered miss is worth little-to-nothing.
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Old November 27, 2012, 09:51 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Florida_Vet
The reaction of shooting at something that is one or seconds away from killing you cannot be duplicated at a range. Short and sweet: if you are comparing between 10mm and .45ACP. I'd go with the gun that you are totally and instinctively comfortable with, that you can load, fire, rack, clear and disassemble in pitch black darkness. The gun you can use as easily as your toothbrush or car key is the one to go with, given that your range of caliber choices is as you describe.
This is the iron truth. People change guns all the time in this day and age, often based on a magazine article or internet posting. They often convince themselves that they have 'improved their odds'. The value of familiarity with a weapon and natural, instinctive presentation on-target cannot be overstated.
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Old November 27, 2012, 01:59 PM   #91
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Excellent replies. Sarge, I am impressed with your article can you give me any advice on selecting a 45 load that is best for out to 100yds? I do not handload (which I was assuming the original post was about purchased ammo), overall is the 45 acp ideally suited for 100yd objectives? As a self-defense caliber I have overlooked this potential.

All: I totally agree about selecting the gun/caliber you shoot best, but in the context of the original post I was assuming the poster was attempting to make a new gun purchase and trying to decide between the two calibers…. Without renting a firearm (which can get expensive) How would one give advice to someone who say has no experience with either caliber or firearm? IMO, for a “woods” gun I would also consider a flatter trajectory. I would be curious to know if the 10mm has better penetration at longer distances than the 45, in general? I do know that there are more options for ‘hunting’ loads in 10mm that can be purchased from manufacturers that would be ideal for penetration and expansion at any distance. I favor the 10mm for its versatility, not because its 'better'.

Also, if anyone is truly worried about animal attacks I would go with bear spray, which has a higher survival rate in documented bear attacks than with firearms and is more humane on the animal that is only following its instincts…. That said, if I was to choose a firearm specifically for black bear protection I would not choose anything less than a 41 magnum. IMO of course, again specifically.
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Old November 27, 2012, 05:11 PM   #92
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+1 on the bear spray. Works great on lions too. No need to gun it down unless you absolutely have to. Im sticking with my hollow points over hard cast hunting bullets. Having personally worked on mountain lions in school. They do get up to 250 lbs but thats extremely rare and more in the northern parts of the US. The average lion is near 100 lbs or so. Would you use a high grain hard cast hunting round on a 100 lbs man?
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Old November 28, 2012, 12:34 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Koda
Sarge, I am impressed with your article can you give me any advice on selecting a 45 load that is best for out to 100yds? I do not handload (which I was assuming the original post was about purchased ammo), overall is the 45 acp ideally suited for 100yd objectives?
I'd say any 225-230 grain load that produces 850+ fps, using a SWC or TC bullet with a substantial flat point. You can't expect much expansion at that distance, but mentioned bullets will knock a half-inch hole clean through a man or deer, bones and all. I've seen 230 FMJ shoot through oak pallet boards at 550 yards, so the lethality is there.

Another thought is to just set the gun up for 45 Super.
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Old November 28, 2012, 01:31 AM   #94
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Thank you for the reply Sarge, and for opening my eye to the SWC/TC bullets in the 45 for 'woods' use... I see there are more options that compete with the 10mm in that bullet type. As my primary carry gun for SD, I have always looked at hollowpoints, although ironically (depending on the adventure) I don't always carry my 10mm in the woods so maybe I will test drive some SWC's for my 45.

Not to drift from the thread, I still favor my 10mm for 'woods' use in general. I like the Cor-Bon BCSP hunting load... and have my eye on trying the Double Tapp 200g FMJ,FP. (I still think the 10mm delivers more punch down range) Like its been expressed already, pick what you shoot best. Both of these calibers make me smile

I've thought about the 45 super conversion but need to learn more, my hesitation is my 45 is a commander size 1911 and I wouldn't do it if I could not run full super loads.... but then I would need another 45 for CC.... ?
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Old November 29, 2012, 08:43 AM   #95
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I have owned the 10mm in about every platform. The G29 was the only gun I couldn't get its velocity up enough to 10mm spec. For size wise, you would be better off carrying a G27 with more rounds and a smaller package. I have extensive 10mm reloading experience over 18 years. The barrel is too short to get the 10mm up to a good 10mm spec. The G20 or Delta is the size needed to really get the 10mm potential. For short barrels, you are better off carrying a 45acp where speed isn't the objective. Carry what you are proficient with. A hi cap 9mm with the right ammo (147) can be just as effective. It's still about multiple hits on your target, in and out of the woods. If you are hunting or know you are in a bear confrontation area, then a accurate 44mag like a S&W 629 is the right tool for the job. I tangle with large black bears all the time either hunting or around my house with garbage cans. A 44mag is the gun I choose to carry when I know the bears could be around when I am cleaning up bear damage and want the use of both of my hands. A 12Guage pump is what I carry when I actually see the bears and have to drive them off. I also have a hi cap handgun for back up with my shotgun. You have to have a black bear snap its jaws or bluff charge you to really understand where you are in the food chain. You will find hair stand up on your body you never knew you had.

FYI, Cats are thin skinned and will easily go down with a 9mm. I have seen many fall from a well placed 22lr.
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Old November 29, 2012, 04:58 PM   #96
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Couger in the morning

Last year in early fall we had a big cat in the open lot across the street from our house in Pierce County WA prowling around for a day or so. Two neighrbors reported seeing and thought it was "neat". Came down from the mountains looking for food no doubt. Kept the .12ga with slugs and OO near the door for awhile and the Colt 10mm on me most of the week. Lots been built on so have not seen it again. Should note the area is heavy built up around a lake and in a small town not out in the boonies..Black bears are common sights not far from us up near the lower White pass area. Hiking in the back country? .12ga pump shottie and .44 magie as a backup on the hip. Heavy loaded 10mm would be my second choice. Should also mention that last year in a nearby town home owner killed a black bear with a S&W .40 that decided to wonder up his indoor stairs towards the kids rooms after breaking through the kitchen door. Ya jest never know.
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Old November 29, 2012, 08:19 PM   #97
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Well, just got back from another trip to my place up north. Cougar tracks right behind my property. Rather worrysome, since I do daily walks around the area. And now that it's freezing, they'll be harder to spot when theres no snow. I'm going to have to be alert at all times. Thank goodness the foliage is mostly gone, at least you can see for quite a ways into the woods.
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Old December 1, 2012, 10:33 PM   #98
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Put out a trail camera. I do all the time around my house. It's amazing what you find creeping at 3am.
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Old December 2, 2012, 04:50 PM   #99
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Funds are currently unavailable. This having 2 houses is killing me. But when I move permanently, that's a great idea and on the list.
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Old December 4, 2012, 10:56 PM   #100
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I think that 10mm and 41 Magnum fans should start their own secrect society.
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