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Old March 24, 2010, 01:37 PM   #26
Badness
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i think i'd personally feel safer with a 10mm. I don't know for sure, but i would SPECULATE that wild animals in the woods have much tougher skin, muscle tissue and bones than humans....so you'll want something that'll easily pentrate through all of that and hit vital organs in order to stop the damn thing from even touching you. But that's just me.

Good luck on your search. I hope you'll never actually have to use it for that situation. I know i wouldn't!
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Old March 24, 2010, 01:57 PM   #27
wilkup
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Drop ins

http://kkmprecision.com/custom_pisto...home.php?cat=1

Dr_2_B
Is this what you were speaking of when saying that I could add a drop in barrel for either caliber? They're fairly cheap and it appears I can also add the .357 Sig round as well! So for $165 per barrel and then the cost of magazines I could technically have 3 guns =) ... this is not a bad deal in my mind.
I'm still struggling with which caliber I should go with though and it's continuing to be a bit of a frustration. I like the large bullet size the .45 offers and with a custom load or +P offering the velocity appears to be pretty high, BUT I also understand that the 10mm is going to be the faster round regardless if loaded in the same way. With this being the case, I really want a heavy bullet that I can use for hand loading at least a 200gr FMJ Flat Nose, but larger if at all possible!
Any ideas/thoughts on this?
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Old March 24, 2010, 02:37 PM   #28
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Just after Christmas i bought a Glock 29 10mm and have to say i love mine except for the ammo cost.When i go into the woods this next deer season i'm going to c/c mine with 180 gr controlled expansion winchester silver tips.I have added it to my rotation of c/c hands and will more than likely carry it through the summer when i'm on the boat and camping in the back woods.Before the 10 mm i would only carry my 686 4 inch for my fishing/woods/camping needs.I have 5 more rounds and it's much easier to carry a spair mag than a speed loader when it comes time to reload.

Here is something else to think about,the grip of G29 is kinda short and my little finger has to hang off but i just invested in a set of mag extentions.It will cost 17.00 for a set that has the extra finger groove for better control.

The recoil is very manageable also,kinda pushy like a .45,like i said i love mine.
Here is mine after i modified it.

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Old March 24, 2010, 04:50 PM   #29
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I really want a heavy bullet that I can use for hand loading at least a 200gr FMJ Flat Nose, but larger if at all possible!
The heaviest 10mm loading I know of is Double Tap's 230grn WFNGC, but it uses a cast bullet so an aftermarket barrel would be needed to shoot it in a Glock. Really, a 200grn or even 180grn FMJ is going to give you plenty of penetration out of a full-power 10mm. Remember that while the .45 does offer slightly more weight, the 10mm's smaller diameter will offer a better cross-sectional density for a given bullet weight.
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Old March 24, 2010, 05:12 PM   #30
wilkup
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a light's gone on...

So how about this idea...

Caliber : 10mm
Bullet : 230gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Ballistics : 1120fps/ 641 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1075fps

I think this might be the BIGGEST BADDEST 10mm round I could venture out into the woods with, BUT I would need a different barrel though so...

I think I'm going to go with the Glock 30, since it appears that I can purchase an after market 10mm drop-in barrel for $165 and since I will want to be shooting the hard-cast bullets I would have to make another barrel purchase anyway, so why not spend the money on a .45 since they're identical guns besides barrel, springs, and mags. Then I would have the option of 2 calibers out of this deal and could carry .45 as my SD round and could afford to go shooting more often since the cost of rounds would be cheaper. Unless for some reason the dealer is able to get the G29 for cheaper I see no reason not to go forward with this.



Thoughts...?

Last edited by wilkup; March 24, 2010 at 05:24 PM.
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Old March 24, 2010, 05:58 PM   #31
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Sounds like a good choice.

I forgot to add in my last post that a can of bear spray might be a good idea as well.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/pubaffrs/1stpersn/rspencer.htm
Remember to report any sighting to WDFW

Last edited by Buzzcook; March 25, 2010 at 01:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old March 25, 2010, 04:56 AM   #32
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hmmm...

For "effectiveness" suggest examing the 45 Colt / 255g @ 900fps; I recommend the 45 ACP / 255g option for 'woods'.

I sold my 10mm a decade ago......
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Old March 25, 2010, 12:57 PM   #33
wilkup
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Quote:
WESHOOT2:
I recommend the 45 ACP / 255g option for 'woods'. I sold my 10mm a decade ago......
How come? Are you a .45 guy or just don't like the 10mm? What is your reasoning for this, if you don't mind me asking? Especially after the overwhelming 10mm response I've received. I'm open to either one still, but want to know why you choose .45 over 10mm.

On a different note... does anyone know if you can put the Lone Wolf barrels made as drop ins for the Glock 29 into a Glock 30? If this is possible than I could snag another barrel for about $115 and be able to run the hard cast rounds for woods through the Glock 30 and it'd be WAY cheaper than I ever imagined!
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Old March 25, 2010, 02:25 PM   #34
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It appears I'm with the silent mayority .44 Mag or .45 Colt. Use the correct tool for the job at hand.
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Old March 25, 2010, 05:18 PM   #35
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There is a possibility that you might have to replace or modify the extractor of a .45 ACP Glock to work reliably with a 10mm barrel since the case heads are different. However, you could get the G29 and buy a Lone Wolf Conversion barrel to .40 S&W, 9x25 Dillon, or .357 Sig without worry about the extractor (10mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and 9x25 Dillon all use the same case head).
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Old March 25, 2010, 08:00 PM   #36
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I was recently stalked by a cougar while on a hike with my girlfriend for the last mile or so to the car.
You're lucky you're alive.
Sweet Jesus, big cats scare the crap outta me.
The wife and I contribute to Big Cat Rescue in Florida. The last time we were there, they had a cougar nearly as big as an African lion - I had no idea they could get that big. I think it went about 260 lbs.
I've seen the tigers stalk BCR workers - the workers were OUTSIDE the cat enclosures, but it was still scary. I think a 10mm would do the job on cougar, but I'd probably just avoid the area.
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Old March 25, 2010, 09:37 PM   #37
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I killed a manatee with my LCP from 50 yards away.

It was comin right for us!!!!
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Old March 25, 2010, 11:15 PM   #38
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Dr_2_B
Is this what you were speaking of
Yeah, that's the idea. Just make sure you do your research before buying any of those. There are a few things to keep in mind like what Webley said above. Your best bet is to use more than one source to verify the interchangeability and then follow up by asking a guy on one of these sites who has proven to be reliable and knowledgeable. Most folks around here are eager to help.
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Old March 26, 2010, 12:57 AM   #39
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Capacity & no free lunch

I enjoy these woods pistol posts, having spent a good bit of time afield, on the job and off.

I think you are asking to much of a handgun to serve as a both "wilderness gun" against bear and cats AND as CCW piece which you can conceal and go about daily. (FWIW, I have zero experience w/ cougar, but I have worked and been around black bears a good bit at other parks, but not here in AL). One type of pistol serves the backcountry role, another the CCW role.

I have not looked up any tables but suspect a short bbl 10mm becomes essentially a .40 S&W, which I do not see as a bear or cat pistol. We accept certain calibers (such as .40) for CCW because we must conceal them. I don't see the need for that in a woods pistol. Portability is important (who wants to carry a pistol gripped 12 ga pump around the backcountry constantly) but not paramount. Plus I suspect that a short 10mm becomes a flamethrower and a handful to shoot well. The full size G20 is packable, controllable and gives the advantage of full power from the 10mm ctg.

The G20 offers high mag capacity as well. Probably won't need it, but it's nice to know it's there.

It won't conceal easily though, in moderate or warm climates. For that you need a smaller pistol.

Finally, I think a greater threat exits from human predators than black bears. I have done some incredibly brazen (and stupid) things with black bears. I am aware of one fatality here in the SE that involved a pair of black bears and an adult woman. (some day I will FOIA the reports) In my two dozen plus trail contacts, (the bulk in SHEN, VA, ) most split, very quickly. Interestingly, last fall I went to GRSM NP w/ the family. We saw 3 on the trail, all very conditioned and not fearful of man at all. (We saw at total of 8, 5 more from the car) .

Your cougar stalking account is chilling, and demonstrates knowledge aforehand and intent. One more reason to stay armed w/ that type of threat about.
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Old March 26, 2010, 07:43 AM   #40
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Quote:
a short bbl 10mm becomes essentially a .40 S&W
I realize it sounds like interchangeable barrels are my mantra in this thread... and I don't even own one. But this is an argument for putting the longer bbl in a G29. Gives a guy the option of concealing a G29 in town, and yet still being able to carry the gun afield with wildlife loads and the longer bbl that does not compromise bullet velocity. He'd simply need to drop the longer bbl in the gun, cycle it a couple times to verify function - then load up and go.
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Old March 26, 2010, 08:08 AM   #41
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I am a 41 AE guy

Please examine the diameter of my 220g LFP / 1400fps "10mm" load; its bullet mikes at .401".

The 252g (actual) "45" LSWC I choose to launch from my 45 ACP 1911 mikes at .4535". It can be safely launched from my gun very near 1000fps.
(Unsafely, it gets launched nearer 1020fps.)

For some reason, big-diameter kinda-heavy bullets with relatively flat points seem to be extremely effective on animals.


I have no cartridge bias, as each cartridge has good reason for existence, BUT......
......based on your desired performance, I simply recommend a .45X" 250--255g large-meplat lead bullet launched with a minimum velocity of 920fps.
History has already taught us its affect on close-range creatures.
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:30 AM   #42
Webleymkv
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I have not looked up any tables but suspect a short bbl 10mm becomes essentially a .40 S&W
No, not really. Double Tap's 200grn 10mm will still break 1200fps from a G29's abbreviated barrel while the same firm's 200grn .40 S&W only gets 1100fps from a 4.5" barrel (I suspect the handgun is a G22).

The relationship between the two cartridges is a lot like that between the .357 Magnum and .38 Special: while the 10mm isn't achieving its full potential from a short barrel, the power gap is large enough to begin with that it's still beyond anything the .40 is capable of.
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Old March 26, 2010, 10:12 AM   #43
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I contacted Buffalo Bore the other day to see what they had to say about the 10mm vs. the big .45 ACP round I'm interested in and this is the response I received back from them:
"Both our 230 gr. FMJ-FN and that 255gr. will penetrate a bears skull and/or
a black bears shoulder bones. With either of those two loads, there is no
need to get a 10mm (unless you simply want one:-) If you really want some
power in your 45 acp, use our 45 Super loads with those two same bullets
loaded into them..........What pistol are you planning to shoot these loads
in?"
So my new question is: Will the Glock 30 platform support the .45 Super round and if not what would I need to do to be able to run this round or is it even a possibility? Here are the ballistics on the same bullet coming out of this case:

.45 Super - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN - 1,075fps/M.E. 654 ft.lbs.
Versus
.45 ACP +P - 255 gr. Hard Cast FN (925 fps/M.E. 484 ft. lbs.)
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Old March 26, 2010, 12:24 PM   #44
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A .45 Super conversion would require, at the very least, a heavier recoil spring and preferrably a recoil buffer.
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Old March 26, 2010, 01:08 PM   #45
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wilkup,

no disrespect intended, but you seem focused on doctoring up your Glock platform to the very ragged edge of its performance envelope so it will fire extremely heavy loads.

Then you ask "...if not what would I need to do to be able to run this round or is it even a possibility?"

If you are looking for the heaviest ballistics you can safely achieve in a handgun, there are numerous rounds that will outperform those you are looking at - they've been mentioned previously. Hand-loading either the .44 Magnum or .45 Long Colt cartridges will give you truly impressive ballistics, alternately you could go with something like a .454 Casull.

But trying to run extremely heavy loads in a Glock is going to require all sorts of compensatory bozonity, because you're trying to make the platform do things it was not designed to do. Sure, it can be done. But at what cost?

What you might want to consider doing to run extremely heavy handgun loads safely is look at a 6" bbl revolver that is designed to fire extremely heavy loads.

Otherwise, the ballistics out of a G20 in 10mm are reasonably comparable to a .41 Magnum factory load, and if you look at the muzzle energy column for the same 175 grain projectile you will note that the 10mm actually indicates a higher muzzle energy than the .41 Magnum (649 vs. 607). Citation:
http://waterguy.us/handgun.htm

By all means have at it, but buying and installing special barrels, recoil buffer pads, heavier spring sets or shock absorbers, etc. all to fire specialty ammunition that you need to order off the internet because few local shops stock it...seems to me to be a PITA to accomplish what a basic .44 Mag revolver could handle with a lot less fuss.

But I'm probably missing something.

Doc
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Old March 26, 2010, 03:53 PM   #46
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10mm all the way -

and take a look at the EAA Witness Compact 12 rounds, safety, about $125 cheaper than the G29... Be careful of where your information comes from there's lots of Internet experts out there that have no experience at all with a 10mm -

Go to the AR15Armory forum 10mm section, start there forget the halfwits on Glock Talk
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Old March 26, 2010, 03:55 PM   #47
wilkup
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Doc:

I want to use the Glock platform for 2 reasons:
1. I shoot Glocks better than any other gun and don't want to retrain on something else that I ONLY plan to carry in the woods vs. being able to take it everywhere with me.
2. I value the reliability of the Glock and the added capacity it will offer over a revolver.

I understand that it probably wasn't designed to shoot these rounds, BUT at the same time feel that if it's possible to take advantage of the indestructible nature of a Glock and it's capable of handling these BIG .45 rounds than it would be foolish not to. I'm not interested in owning lots of different guns; my desire is to be the best with the few I carry (Glock 9mm & pocket .380) and train with them, rather than have many different platforms I'll always be mediocre with, but never get to become an expert with any of them. I don't know if that is logical to anyone else, but that is my reasoning for pushing it with this Glock platform and choosing the 10mm or .45 to shoot out of it. Thanks for all the helpful advice guys, I really appreciate it.

Last edited by wilkup; March 26, 2010 at 04:02 PM.
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Old March 26, 2010, 05:59 PM   #48
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There is something else to consider when deciding on a revolver or semi-auto. As you've already said you may not even be aware of a cougar until it's literally on you. If you can get to your pistol you are looking at a contact shot which could cause a failure to return to battery situation. If you have the gun jambed between you and the cougar you could prevent the slide from cycling at all.

You can shoot limited numbers of hard cast bullets though a Glock with no problems. Shooting fifty rounds of hard cast to function test the ammo isn't going to cause a problem, as long as you clean it thoroughly afterwards. The problems come in when people shoot softer bullets and think it's a glock, it only need to be cleaned once a year.
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Old March 26, 2010, 06:31 PM   #49
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I don't believe those ballistics from a G29 for one second.

I like Glocks, but both the G29 & 30 are a little fat for my taste. The G23 is a better CCW, and the 40S&W is adequate for Cougar.
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Old March 26, 2010, 08:03 PM   #50
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I don't believe those ballistics from a G29 for one second.
Why not? The original Norma 10mm loadings propelled a 200grn bullet at 1200fps from a 5" barrel. 100fps velocity loss with a 200grn bullet is pretty believable since heavier bullets tend to lose less velocity from short barrels than lighter ones (a 158grn .357 Magnum will usually "lose" 100-150fps from a 2" barrel as opposed to a 4" and one will typically see similar velocity losses with 230grn .45 ACP's is an Officer's Model as opposed to a Government Model 1911). Add to this that Glock's polygonal rifling typically gives higher velocities than standard cut rifling and I find Double Tap's claim of 200grn @ 1100fps from a G29 (which has a barrel only 0.82" shorter than a G20) entirely believable.
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