What type of physical fitness is appropriate for today's tactical threats? - Page 3

BlackFeather · March 23, 2010, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnH1963

I know that speed is important in a fight, but I have found that all out strength is what counts. One good blow can put someone out better then three or four weaker blows...

I respectfully disagree. I am by no means stronger than most people I have fought, I won by sheer knowledge and ability to use it fast enough. The strength I do have is more for striking and speed. I am no wrestler but have beaten them when it has counted. Though I am still young...

Skans · March 23, 2010, 07:53 AM

Quote:

and boxing...sure... if you're going against someone who's never fought before. But boxers are severely handicapped against MMA fighters. Boxers wear thick gloves, they don't train for ground-n-pound, they dance around and use their arms only, not utilizing legs, elbows, locks and bars.... etc.

That's crap! I've boxed. I've also kickboxed and trained in a variety of grappling and street fighting techniques. Most boxers these days also know how to fight. If you think otherwise, you've making a huge mistake.

I also agree that good solid fighting skills help you with combat-defensive shooting. While target shooting will teach you trigger control, it doesn't teach you how to fight using a gun as a tool. It's really only part of the equation.

Brasky · March 23, 2010, 08:10 AM

LOL at MMA vs boxer. I know that's what I worry about walking the streets...rouge MMA gangs, lmao. Some of you guys are killing a brother with this nonsense!

Winning a fight = wanting to win a fight...discipline, style, size, speed, physical condition...irrelevant.

Slap a fat, old man's kid and see how tough he gets to handle.

Ian0351 · March 23, 2010, 12:27 PM

"Rouge" MMA gangs? Like all dressed up and no one to fight?

PH/CIB · April 12, 2010, 12:10 AM

I have never seen anyone outrun a bullet.

Anyone can pull a trigger, old, young, disabled, out of shape, in shape.

gunrunner1 · April 13, 2010, 02:46 PM

Old fat guys with experience and brains

I worked with a number of fat guys as a corrections officer. It took them an hour to run a hundred or so yards to a fight, and once they got there, they were so worn out, they had to take a 10 minute rest. You need strength and endurance.

booker_t · April 26, 2010, 03:24 PM

I liked the "old guy with brains" option.. indeed.

Physically speaking, I don't think you characterized the sprinter very well. Most sprinters are excellent all-around athletes. They must be strong in the legs, core and upper body. They do extensive weight lifting, plyo work, and agility work.

Likewise, sprinters do longer runs (3-5 miles) as it does improve their VO2 max and other attributes that help their sprinting. However, an elite sprinter will minimize endurance work because it promotes more slow-twitch muscle fibers in their legs, which hurts their performance. They are trying to convert as much slow-twitch to fast-twitch, and keep them there, as possible.

I think a more accurate description of an ideal "fitness" level for an LEO/military would be a mix between NFL Cornerback and a boxer/MMA. Or perhaps a gymnast. They combine elements of strenght, agility, balance and quickness (both of the feet and of the hands). Of course the CrossFit methods promote this type of fitness in varying ways.

The execution side of things, trigger control, decision making under stress, etc, is a separate portion of fitness that comes through repitition and appropriate training, to the point of failure.

So what's the culmination of all these attributes? Just look at the Army Rangers or Navy SEALS, and you've got it.

Matt19 · April 30, 2010, 09:40 PM

Given that this thread originally had to do with "shape" in reference to strength and conditioning for a tactical threat, I'll give my 28 cents worth. One needs both physical strength and the conditioning to endure. How one obtains that is largely going to be a personal preference. Just make sure that there is a blend. After all what is the point of being able to bench press 400 lbs if you get winded walking a block? Or you can run 5 miles without any problem but can't lift an injured buddy?

There is a reason why it's referred to as Strength AND Conditioning in the sports world.

Find things that you enjoy and make 'em part of your day. Weightlifting, running, swimming, martial arts, etc. All have their benefits.

Haifisch · April 30, 2010, 09:45 PM

one of my favorite training tools are Kettlebells.

http://www.dragondoor.com/

riverwalker76 · April 30, 2010, 10:42 PM

Well a few things come to mind here .....

My MCMAP instructor always told me .... "Never engage an enemy at arms reach whom you can safely engage at a distance!"

In other words ... it's always better to fire or fight, but never flee!

On the other hand ....

In an urban CQC setting a person must be able to sprint down long alleys ... roll over 6 foot fences with minimal effort ... kick down doors ... and be able to run another mile when it's all over.

I've seen some of the biggest, baddest musclebound Marines get winded after a 2 mile hump. Then I've seen some of the fastest sprinters who were unable to roll a fence or short wall.

It's my opinion that in a CQC Urban setting you just need to be lean and mean. In other words .... built like a baseball player with the lungs of a Cross Country runner.

bamaranger · May 6, 2010, 03:00 AM

Everybody expects officers to run like a deer. My agency pushes fitness standards big time, and it is all geared to runners and agility people.

Good thing too, cause many of these antelopes and jack rabbits have little total strength. They better be able to run away! Most of the strength tests/standards are balanced against body weight. The lighter the officer is, the less weight they have to press to score well. The fact that you can press 110 % of your body weight is moot if you only weigh 155. A measure of fitness yes, but not fight winning strength. Total strength helps win fights.

Although the strength tests are adjusted by body size and weight, giving small officers good scores, though they may not move as much weight as a larger man, the run and agility tests are not. Somebody that weighs 250 is expected to be as fast and quick as another at 155. Its absurd! That's akin to expecting your lineman to be as fast as your running backs.

Despite what you see on the tube, it is my experience that the bad guy gets away on foot chases. Not every agency has choppers and dogs. And a blind foot pursuit is a dangerous thing. I feel I'm quick and agile enough to find cover, cross rough terrain. I am not, and never have been, a sprinter or gymnast.

You don't need to out last your assailant, you need to overpower them, subdue them. Most struggles/fights are quick and dirty. Strength and power are your friends. I'm slower and older than nearly all the guys I work with. In sheer strength, I'm stronger than many of them.

booker_t · May 6, 2010, 07:06 AM

I think bamaranger makes a great point. In LE scenarios, more often than not the scumbag is trying to flee, not win a fight. The Operator, on the other hand, is trying to apprehend, with minimal injury (and minimal paperwork!).

Getting that roided-up chucklehead to the ground and controlling him to where you can put cuffs on and protect everybody's safety is very different to winning a fight in the ring, a race on the track, or a pushup/situp contest.

--BREAK--

I wonder how many of the ~55% that responded "decathlete" actually know what's in the decathlon. I submit for review the following modern decathlon:

Day 1
100 meters
Long Jump
Shot Put
High Jump
400 meters

Day 2
110 meter hurdles
Discus
Pole Vault
Javelin
1500 meters

I've never seen much requirement to throw heavy objects or spears in the field, so Shot Put, Discus and Javelin are pretty much pointless.

General running and speed is worthwhile (not so much for patrol cops, but for SWAT/SRT/military definitely), so the 100m, 400m and 1500m make sense. But a decent sprinter or "cornerback" can score well in these runs. But quite frankly, running down an alley, through a crowded street, up and down stairs.. all very different to running around a 1/4 mile rubber-top track.

So what's left.. long jump, high jump, hurdles. Sure leg strength/power is important but I don't see any direct correlation from these events to tactical requirements. You might make an argument that you have to hurdle obstacles, but if you're wearing 30-80+ lbs of body armor and kit, you're not really hurdling you're traversing however best you can.

I don't know for sure, but I'm going to guess pole vault is primarily technique.

DanThaMan1776 · May 6, 2010, 05:39 PM

If you're worried about hand-to-hand encounters... method means more than physical ability. If you're worried about a shootout... knowing what to do means more than physical ability.

But if it comes down to you and an adversary who share knowledge, a little strength, endurance, and speed would be nice

cracked91 · May 8, 2010, 01:40 PM

MMA vs Boxers? I personally laugh at the thought of people thinking boxers would have chance. Boxers don't stand a chance against experiences wrestlers generally, let alone someone who can do both. The boxers I have encountered would generally be able to give me a severe beat down, until I took them off their feet. Then they squirm around wondering where their arms are and why they can't breathe.

Watch UFC people. The simple fact is your gun would probably be the only thing that would save you from someone who trains like these guys do. You guys can love to think its still the 1800s, but fighting techniques, as well as technology, and everything else on god's green earth, have advance quite a bit in recent years. Every branch of the Military teaches some form of MMA now. Because its effective. A blend of boxing, wrestling, and pressure points. Thats what fighting actually is. Zero rules. If you get half a chance to kick someone below the belt line in a fight, you better take it, because they are going to do the same thing to you given the chance. Biting, scratching, things that are considered "cowardly", start to seem like a much better idea when your on the receiving end of 3 guys with baseball bats.

Many people who get in brawls, particularly here in AZ where I live, don't stop to think until someone's dead. Things have changed. Its not bar fights anymore. There were a few students who were killed in unarmed fights when I was in high school. Not at the school, but at parties/bars.

Never assume that because you have some manly fighting morals, that the person your fighting does.

View Poll Results: Which shape do you think is the most appropriate for today's tactical threats?
Weightlifter	10	12.20%
Sprinter	14	17.07%
Decathlete	44	53.66%
Long Distance runner	14	17.07%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

March 23, 2010, 12:27 PM	#54
Ian0351 Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Location: Washington Posts: 414	"Rouge" MMA gangs? Like all dressed up and no one to fight? __________________ You can have your churches, I'll keep my guns. Just keep your hands off my paycheck and your eyes out of my backyard. Join the Libertarian Party! http://www.lp.org Semper Fidelis

April 12, 2010, 12:10 AM	#55
PH/CIB Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2007 Location: Iowa Posts: 281	I have never seen anyone outrun a bullet. Anyone can pull a trigger, old, young, disabled, out of shape, in shape. __________________ Life Member,,,Military Order of the Purple Heart, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Amvets, Disabled American Veterans, 173rd Airborne Skysoldier Association, National Rifle Association, Member,,,IDPA, USPSA, Iowa Sheriffs and Deputies Association,,Website http://www.handgunholsters.net

April 30, 2010, 09:40 PM	#58
Matt19 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 1999 Posts: 315	Given that this thread originally had to do with "shape" in reference to strength and conditioning for a tactical threat, I'll give my 28 cents worth. One needs both physical strength and the conditioning to endure. How one obtains that is largely going to be a personal preference. Just make sure that there is a blend. After all what is the point of being able to bench press 400 lbs if you get winded walking a block? Or you can run 5 miles without any problem but can't lift an injured buddy? There is a reason why it's referred to as Strength AND Conditioning in the sports world. Find things that you enjoy and make 'em part of your day. Weightlifting, running, swimming, martial arts, etc. All have their benefits. __________________ In life, you'll have your back up against the wall many times. You might as well get used to it.-Bear Bryant.

April 30, 2010, 10:42 PM	#60
riverwalker76 Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 993	Well a few things come to mind here ..... My MCMAP instructor always told me .... "Never engage an enemy at arms reach whom you can safely engage at a distance!" In other words ... it's always better to fire or fight, but never flee! On the other hand .... In an urban CQC setting a person must be able to sprint down long alleys ... roll over 6 foot fences with minimal effort ... kick down doors ... and be able to run another mile when it's all over. I've seen some of the biggest, baddest musclebound Marines get winded after a 2 mile hump. Then I've seen some of the fastest sprinters who were unable to roll a fence or short wall. It's my opinion that in a CQC Urban setting you just need to be lean and mean. In other words .... built like a baseball player with the lungs of a Cross Country runner. __________________ *Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto* - “You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.”

March 23, 2010, 08:10 AM	#53
Brasky Member Join Date: March 19, 2010 Posts: 53	LOL at MMA vs boxer. I know that's what I worry about walking the streets...rouge MMA gangs, lmao. Some of you guys are killing a brother with this nonsense! Winning a fight = wanting to win a fight...discipline, style, size, speed, physical condition...irrelevant. Slap a fat, old man's kid and see how tough he gets to handle.

April 13, 2010, 02:46 PM	#56
gunrunner1 Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2010 Location: Missouri Posts: 111	Old fat guys with experience and brains I worked with a number of fat guys as a corrections officer. It took them an hour to run a hundred or so yards to a fight, and once they got there, they were so worn out, they had to take a 10 minute rest. You need strength and endurance.

April 26, 2010, 03:24 PM	#57
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	I liked the "old guy with brains" option.. indeed. Physically speaking, I don't think you characterized the sprinter very well. Most sprinters are excellent all-around athletes. They must be strong in the legs, core and upper body. They do extensive weight lifting, plyo work, and agility work. Likewise, sprinters do longer runs (3-5 miles) as it does improve their VO2 max and other attributes that help their sprinting. However, an elite sprinter will minimize endurance work because it promotes more slow-twitch muscle fibers in their legs, which hurts their performance. They are trying to convert as much slow-twitch to fast-twitch, and keep them there, as possible. I think a more accurate description of an ideal "fitness" level for an LEO/military would be a mix between NFL Cornerback and a boxer/MMA. Or perhaps a gymnast. They combine elements of strenght, agility, balance and quickness (both of the feet and of the hands). Of course the CrossFit methods promote this type of fitness in varying ways. The execution side of things, trigger control, decision making under stress, etc, is a separate portion of fitness that comes through repitition and appropriate training, to the point of failure. So what's the culmination of all these attributes? Just look at the Army Rangers or Navy SEALS, and you've got it.

April 30, 2010, 09:45 PM	#59
Haifisch Junior member Join Date: April 27, 2010 Location: Midwest Posts: 96	one of my favorite training tools are Kettlebells. http://www.dragondoor.com/

May 6, 2010, 03:00 AM	#61
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,312	academy and managment Everybody expects officers to run like a deer. My agency pushes fitness standards big time, and it is all geared to runners and agility people. Good thing too, cause many of these antelopes and jack rabbits have little total strength. They better be able to run away! Most of the strength tests/standards are balanced against body weight. The lighter the officer is, the less weight they have to press to score well. The fact that you can press 110 % of your body weight is moot if you only weigh 155. A measure of fitness yes, but not fight winning strength. Total strength helps win fights. Although the strength tests are adjusted by body size and weight, giving small officers good scores, though they may not move as much weight as a larger man, the run and agility tests are not. Somebody that weighs 250 is expected to be as fast and quick as another at 155. Its absurd! That's akin to expecting your lineman to be as fast as your running backs. Despite what you see on the tube, it is my experience that the bad guy gets away on foot chases. Not every agency has choppers and dogs. And a blind foot pursuit is a dangerous thing. I feel I'm quick and agile enough to find cover, cross rough terrain. I am not, and never have been, a sprinter or gymnast. You don't need to out last your assailant, you need to overpower them, subdue them. Most struggles/fights are quick and dirty. Strength and power are your friends. I'm slower and older than nearly all the guys I work with. In sheer strength, I'm stronger than many of them.

May 6, 2010, 07:06 AM	#62
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	I think bamaranger makes a great point. In LE scenarios, more often than not the scumbag is trying to flee, not win a fight. The Operator, on the other hand, is trying to apprehend, with minimal injury (and minimal paperwork!). Getting that roided-up chucklehead to the ground and controlling him to where you can put cuffs on and protect everybody's safety is very different to winning a fight in the ring, a race on the track, or a pushup/situp contest. --BREAK-- I wonder how many of the ~55% that responded "decathlete" actually know what's in the decathlon. I submit for review the following modern decathlon: Day 1 100 meters Long Jump Shot Put High Jump 400 meters Day 2 110 meter hurdles Discus Pole Vault Javelin 1500 meters I've never seen much requirement to throw heavy objects or spears in the field, so Shot Put, Discus and Javelin are pretty much pointless. General running and speed is worthwhile (not so much for patrol cops, but for SWAT/SRT/military definitely), so the 100m, 400m and 1500m make sense. But a decent sprinter or "cornerback" can score well in these runs. But quite frankly, running down an alley, through a crowded street, up and down stairs.. all very different to running around a 1/4 mile rubber-top track. So what's left.. long jump, high jump, hurdles. Sure leg strength/power is important but I don't see any direct correlation from these events to tactical requirements. You might make an argument that you have to hurdle obstacles, but if you're wearing 30-80+ lbs of body armor and kit, you're not really hurdling you're traversing however best you can. I don't know for sure, but I'm going to guess pole vault is primarily technique. Last edited by booker_t; May 6, 2010 at 07:26 AM.

May 6, 2010, 05:39 PM	#63
DanThaMan1776 Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 395	If you're worried about hand-to-hand encounters... method means more than physical ability. If you're worried about a shootout... knowing what to do means more than physical ability. But if it comes down to you and an adversary who share knowledge, a little strength, endurance, and speed would be nice

May 8, 2010, 01:40 PM	#64
cracked91 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 385	MMA vs Boxers? I personally laugh at the thought of people thinking boxers would have chance. Boxers don't stand a chance against experiences wrestlers generally, let alone someone who can do both. The boxers I have encountered would generally be able to give me a severe beat down, until I took them off their feet. Then they squirm around wondering where their arms are and why they can't breathe. Watch UFC people. The simple fact is your gun would probably be the only thing that would save you from someone who trains like these guys do. You guys can love to think its still the 1800s, but fighting techniques, as well as technology, and everything else on god's green earth, have advance quite a bit in recent years. Every branch of the Military teaches some form of MMA now. Because its effective. A blend of boxing, wrestling, and pressure points. Thats what fighting actually is. Zero rules. If you get half a chance to kick someone below the belt line in a fight, you better take it, because they are going to do the same thing to you given the chance. Biting, scratching, things that are considered "cowardly", start to seem like a much better idea when your on the receiving end of 3 guys with baseball bats. Many people who get in brawls, particularly here in AZ where I live, don't stop to think until someone's dead. Things have changed. Its not bar fights anymore. There were a few students who were killed in unarmed fights when I was in high school. Not at the school, but at parties/bars. Never assume that because you have some manly fighting morals, that the person your fighting does.