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View Poll Results: Is it a crime (Felony) to sell a gun FTF and not provide a receipt?
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Old March 15, 2010, 03:30 PM   #1
roach4047
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Is it a crime (Felony) to sell a gun FTF and not provide a receipt?

It was mentioned to me by a buddy of mine that his son believes it is a Felony to purchase/sell a gun in a FTF transaction without a receipt being part of the deal. I have never heard of this before and would like to hear from those of you out there that are more familiar with such matters. I've gone to a number of gun shows locally and have witnessed transactions occur more than once where a gun was sold without papers and no receipt was provided from the seller. I've been under the impression that a FTF deal doesn't require a bill of sale or a record of transfer.

Is this a crime?


Thanks,
Roach
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Old March 15, 2010, 03:41 PM   #2
vranasaurus
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You are not required under federal law to get or give a receipt or bill of sale for FT transactions but it could be required under some states' law which governs intrastate face to face transactions.
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Old March 15, 2010, 10:23 PM   #3
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+1 ^^what he said^^
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Old March 15, 2010, 11:20 PM   #4
InferriCanis
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In any transaction, buying or selling, CYA. Always get a reciept.
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Old March 15, 2010, 11:49 PM   #5
pax
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Which state are you in?

It does make a difference, you know.

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Old March 16, 2010, 06:43 AM   #6
roach4047
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Pax,

I live in Ohio. Now I don't claim to be a lawyer or anything of that nature but I'm 40 years old now and it would be a surprise to me if it were in fact a state law and I some how haven't already come across that type of information. Like I said, I've witnessed numerous transactions @ local gun shows and no receipt exchanged hands.

Thanks for the input lady's ang gents.

Roach
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Old March 16, 2010, 06:49 AM   #7
Kreyzhorse
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I've been to numerous gun shows in Ohio and don't believe its a felony to sell or buy a gun in a private sale without a receipt.
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Old March 16, 2010, 07:12 AM   #8
blume357
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First, the ATF and the federal government can't have anything

to do with a Face to Face / Private sale between two residents of the same state. So far. Now there could be a state law and that could be a felony depending on the penalty. But I seriously doubt it.
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Old March 16, 2010, 09:17 AM   #9
pax
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Here's a link to the Ohio statutes: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc

And here's the exact law your friend was referring to: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio ORC 2923.20



(A) No person shall:

(1) Recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any firearm to any person prohibited by section 2923.13 or 2923.15 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any firearm, or recklessly sell, lend, give, or furnish any dangerous ordnance to any person prohibited by section 2923.13, 2923.15, or 2923.17 of the Revised Code from acquiring or using any dangerous ordnance;

(2) Possess any firearm or dangerous ordnance with purpose to dispose of it in violation of division (A) of this section;

(3) Manufacture, possess for sale, sell, or furnish to any person other than a law enforcement agency for authorized use in police work, any brass knuckles, cestus, billy, blackjack, sandbag, switchblade knife, springblade knife, gravity knife, or similar weapon;

(4) When transferring any dangerous ordnance to another, negligently fail to require the transferee to exhibit such identification, license, or permit showing him to be authorized to acquire dangerous ordnance pursuant to section 2923.17 of the Revised Code, or negligently fail to take a complete record of the transaction and forthwith forward a copy of that record to the sheriff of the county or safety director or police chief of the municipality where the transaction takes place;

(5) Knowingly fail to report to law enforcement authorities forthwith the loss or theft of any firearm or dangerous ordnance in the person’s possession or under the person’s control.

(B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of unlawful transactions in weapons. A violation of division (A)(1) or (2) of this section is a felony of the fourth degree. A violation of division (A)(3) or (4) of this section is a misdemeanor of the second degree. A violation of division (A)(5) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

Effective Date: 07-01-1996
So it isn't firearms per se that require a receipt by law, but "dangerous ordnance." That term is defined a bit earlier in the chapter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ORC 2923.11

(K) “Dangerous ordnance” means any of the following, except as provided in division (L) of this section:

(1) Any automatic or sawed-off firearm, zip-gun, or ballistic knife;

(2) Any explosive device or incendiary device;

(3) Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose, nitrostarch, PETN, cyclonite, TNT, picric acid, and other high explosives; amatol, tritonal, tetrytol, pentolite, pecretol, cyclotol, and other high explosive compositions; plastic explosives; dynamite, blasting gelatin, gelatin dynamite, sensitized ammonium nitrate, liquid-oxygen blasting explosives, blasting powder, and other blasting agents; and any other explosive substance having sufficient brisance or power to be particularly suitable for use as a military explosive, or for use in mining, quarrying, excavating, or demolitions;

(4) Any firearm, rocket launcher, mortar, artillery piece, grenade, mine, bomb, torpedo, or similar weapon, designed and manufactured for military purposes, and the ammunition for that weapon;

(5) Any firearm muffler or silencer;

(6) Any combination of parts that is intended by the owner for use in converting any firearm or other device into a dangerous ordnance.

(L) “Dangerous ordnance” does not include any of the following:

(1) Any firearm, including a military weapon and the ammunition for that weapon, and regardless of its actual age, that employs a percussion cap or other obsolete ignition system, or that is designed and safe for use only with black powder;

(2) Any pistol, rifle, or shotgun, designed or suitable for sporting purposes, including a military weapon as issued or as modified, and the ammunition for that weapon, unless the firearm is an automatic or sawed-off firearm;

(3) Any cannon or other artillery piece that, regardless of its actual age, is of a type in accepted use prior to 1887, has no mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or other system for absorbing recoil and returning the tube into battery without displacing the carriage, and is designed and safe for use only with black powder;

(4) Black powder, priming quills, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used to fire a cannon of a type defined in division (L)(3) of this section during displays, celebrations, organized matches or shoots, and target practice, and smokeless and black powder, primers, and percussion caps possessed and lawfully used as a propellant or ignition device in small-arms or small-arms ammunition;

(5) Dangerous ordnance that is inoperable or inert and cannot readily be rendered operable or activated, and that is kept as a trophy, souvenir, curio, or museum piece.

(6) Any device that is expressly excepted from the definition of a destructive device pursuant to the “Gun Control Act of 1968,” 82 Stat. 1213, 921, as amended, and regulations issued under that act.
So your friend was (mostly) incorrect.

It's against the law to fail to provide a receipt for some types of firearms, and you are required to forward information about that transaction to law enforcement. But it's a misdemeanor, not a felony, and it does not apply to all firearms.

The thing that might bite you is that it is a felony to "recklessly" sell a firearm to a prohibited person. If you don't ask for the person's ID or make a good-faith effort to be sure they're okay, and they are in fact a prohibited person, you've probably just committed a felony under this statute.

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Old March 16, 2010, 02:01 PM   #10
roach4047
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Kathy,

Thanks for this info. It's good to know. I'll pass it along.

Roach
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Old March 16, 2010, 02:10 PM   #11
DiscoRacing
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Hope its not illegal... for I may have trouble finding receipts for all the guns that I have bought.... And Im pretty sure I didnt lose em.
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Old March 16, 2010, 10:27 PM   #12
45Gunner
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Selling a gun face to face within your State is perfectly legal in most states. However, you must CYA. I found a form which I use for a Bill of Sale that basically has the buyer answer the same questions as on the ATF Form. He certifies that he is legal to own the gun and I also get his driver license number and his CCW permit info. Again, it is a CYA deal.




Buyer:
Has NEVER been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
• Is NOT a fugitive from justice.
• Is NOT an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
• Has NEVER been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
• Is NOT an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United states or an alien admitted to the United states under a nonimmigrant visa.
• Has NOT been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
• Having been a citizen of the United states, has NEVER renounced his or her citizenship.
• Is NOT subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
• Has NOT been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
• CAN lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.
• Is NOT a person who is under indictment or information for a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year.
I truthfully state that I AM NOT a person who cannot legally buy, receive, and posses firearms and/or ammunition.
Full Name _________________________________________ Signature _______________________________________
Firearm(s) sold
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Make: __________________ Model:_____________ Caliber: ____________ S/N: _______________ Cost: ___________
Buyer Seller
(NAME) (NAME)
(ADDRESS) (ADDRESS)
(DL) (DL)
(CWL) (CWL)
(Contact #) (Contact #)
I understand the firearm is sold AS-IS and no warranty has been implied or given. Firearm should be inspected by a
competent gunsmith prior to using. Seller not responsible for any damages incurred or caused by the use of this firearm.
Sale Conditions: _____________________________________________________________________________________
Buyer Signature:_________________________________ Seller Signature:_____________________________________
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Old March 17, 2010, 06:43 PM   #13
dogtown tom
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Quote:
blume357:...First, the ATF and the federal government can't have anything to do with a Face to Face / Private sale between two residents of the same state....
They sure can and do.

If you knowingly sell a firearm to a "prohibited person" you go to jail. The fact that it is a "private sale" has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
ATF HomeFirearmsFrequently Asked QuestionsUnlicensed Persons
Unlicensed Persons Questions



Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]
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