The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 14, 2010, 07:21 PM   #1
dbgunner
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 3, 2009
Posts: 2
Medical Marijuanna, gun ownership, and CCW

What are the implications of medical MJ and gun ownership. There is the drug/alcohol use question on the 4473. Would one lose his abiility to purchase or carry firearms if answering "yes"(and have a MMJ prescription). Just a conversation a co-worker and I had recently.
dbgunner is offline  
Old March 14, 2010, 07:30 PM   #2
Glasstream15
Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2008
Location: The Oldest City
Posts: 33
JMNSHO


Anyone using ANY mind altering chemicals should not have a firearm at hand. As far as owning, I don't know but I would not have a problem with it as long as the owner was not actively using prescribed drugs.

Legally, I have no idea.
__________________
Too poor to be a Republican
Too smart to be a Democrat
Libertarian???
Live Free... Die Well
Glasstream15 is offline  
Old March 14, 2010, 07:59 PM   #3
Nunya53
Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2006
Location: Sherwood, AR
Posts: 51
I haven't used marijuana since high school about 24 years ago, but in my mind marijuana usage = alcohol usage. If it were legal, I may or may not smoke it but I do enjoy several adult beverages during the week. Simply due to the fact that the Federal Government views marijuana as a controlled substance and tends to trample over States rights, be careful answering questions.

Of course, if it is legal in your state, then you can truthfully answer that you do NOT use illegal drugs. If I break my leg and am prescribed hydrocodone at the time I'm buying a firearm, I am not going to answer that I am using illegal drugs because I'm not, due to the fact I have a prescription.

All in all, you could pull a Bill Clinton and ask what the definition of "is" is all day long and get many different answers....

Nunya
Nunya53 is offline  
Old March 14, 2010, 08:19 PM   #4
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
In the case of legally prescribed medical marijuana:

Unlawful user of: no

Addicted to: no

Therefore one may truthfully answer: no

Doesn't seem too complicated to me.

-T
thawntex is offline  
Old March 14, 2010, 10:05 PM   #5
TimT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 147
Quote:
Of course, if it is legal in your state, then you can truthfully answer that you do NOT use illegal drugs.
Except that the DEA would disagree with you about its legal standing.

They have been raiding medical pot shops in California - I don't think they are raiding them because they feel they are absolutely legal. Do you?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ues-pot-raids/
TimT is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 03:08 AM   #6
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Don't smoke it or have it and you won't be paranoid enough to want to have guns to protect your stash.

That aside, I don't see why a legal prescription would be a problem. I agree with Nunya53 on that.

I don't know the laws on it however.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 03:29 AM   #7
imthegrumpyone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2007
Location: spring tx
Posts: 1,037
My .02 says NO NO NO. but than what would I know about drugs and the law ?
__________________
chambered and unlocked
imthegrumpyone is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 05:51 AM   #8
warnerwh
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Posts: 278
That is a good question being as marijuana is considered by the DEA to be illegal but in many states medical marijuana is legal. If there's any attorneys that have an idea of how this situation would work in court I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to hear the arguments.
__________________
Portland, Or
warnerwh is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 06:06 AM   #9
Daryl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 11, 2008
Posts: 2,350
I'm not an attorney, but here's my thoughts...

The "form" is a federal form, so one would think it's set by federal standards (BATFE is a federal law enforcement organization; so is DEA).

If you're charged in a state that allows medical MJ, you'll be charged by the feds.

If charged by the feds, you'll be tried in federal court.

If tried in federal court, you'll be tried according to federal law.

Medical MJ is illegal by federal law.

If you have the money to appeal it to the SCOTUS, then you MIGHT get away with it on a state's rights basis, but again, I'm not an attorney, and I wouldn't bet on it even if I was.

IMO, having medical MJ prescribed to you by a doctor could serve as evidence against you as proof that you're "an unlawful user of, or addicted to ...".

I dunno. I've never smoked it, and wouldn't even if it was legalized. I've always been heavily into shooting, and never could see how such things might enhance my abilities to do what I really enjoy. I don't drink alcohol for the same reason.

Daryl
Daryl is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 06:44 AM   #10
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
Except that the DEA would disagree with you about its legal standing.

They have been raiding medical pot shops in California - I don't think they are raiding them because they feel they are absolutely legal. Do you?
Except you are wrong. The article you post is from Feb. 2009. Less than 6 months ago Obama told the DEA to stop harassing people following state legal-marijuana laws.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/1..._n_325426.html

So if you are following state law, the Feds are not going to bother you. Yes, you are breaking Federal Law while following State law but the Feds have opted not to enforce the law.
SwampYankee is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 06:45 AM   #11
CRUE CAB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 200
As long as its legal in your state, I see no problem with it.
To be honest, I have seen and heard about more idiot things done with guns by drunk guys than stoned guys.
I dont advocate either, while handling weapons. But if you are mature enough to separate the two.
No harm no foul.
CRUE CAB is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 08:13 AM   #12
TimT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 147
Quote:
Yes, you are breaking Federal Law while following State law but the Feds have opted not to enforce the law.
So you are saying that it is illegal, correct?

Just because you may not get prosecuted, doesn't make it legal. On paper, you are using an illegal substance. Their definitions of legal are the ones that matter - not yours, and not mine either. Until the feds say that medical dope is legal, you are lying on a 4473. The fact that you will probably not be prosecuted is another matter.

Anyone want to send an email off to their favorite ATF office and see what they say about this?
TimT is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 10:19 AM   #13
crghss
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 537
Why is thread here?

If you smoke dope you don't need guns. Guns don't mix with Pot, pills or any other junk.
crghss is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 10:53 AM   #14
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
Quote:
If you smoke dope you don't need guns. Guns don't mix with Pot, pills or any other junk.
A cancer patient who cannot gain an appetite due to chemotherapy might take issue with your "junk" and "dope" labels. To them, marijuana is indeed good medicine that helps them stomach the food they so desperately need.

Back to the topic at hand, there is a distinct difference between a drug abuser and one who takes the correct dosage of legally prescribed medicine. The question on form 4473 reads "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to...".

So, for example, an addict who takes a dozen pain pills they bought off the street answers yes, while someone who takes the recommended dose of pain meds after filling a legitimate prescription answers no. Simple.

I don't believe the OP was asking for opinions on who needs guns and who doesn't.

-T
thawntex is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 11:28 AM   #15
crghss
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2008
Location: South Florida
Posts: 537
Are you an unlawful user

According to the Federal government you are.

Is 4473 a federal form?

Just wondering what is the "correct dosage" of pot? One puff, two?

Last edited by crghss; March 15, 2010 at 11:34 AM.
crghss is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 11:41 AM   #16
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,529
1. Question 11e on Form 4473 asks:

Quote:
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
You can dance around it all day that it's medical marijuana, doctor prescribed, it's an herb, a natural substance, blah, blah, blah- if it's illegal under Federal law you cannot truthfully answer question 11e on the Form 4473.

It's illegal under Federal law. Period.

What may be legal under your state law doesn't exempt you from Federal law. http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4575

Get caught lying on a Form 4473 gets you up to 10 years imprisonment and/or up to a $250,000 fine.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 12:21 PM   #17
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,777
This subject was discussed extensively in this thread: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=381767.

The bottom line:

[1] The question on the 4473 is: "Are you an unlawful user,..., of marijuana ...or any other controlled substance?..."

[2] Under 18 USC 922(g) --

"(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—

....

(3) who is an unlawful user of ... any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));

....

to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. ..."

[3] Marijuana is a Schedule I controlled substance under federal law (21 USC 812), and can not be prescribed lawfully under federal law.

[4] Since marijuana is a Schedule I controlled substance, it may not be prescribed lawfully under federal law. And therefore anyone using marijuana, even under state medical marijuana laws, is, under federal law, an unlawfully user of a controlled substance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwampYankee
... Less than 6 months ago Obama told the DEA to stop harassing people following state legal-marijuana laws.

...So if you are following state law, the Feds are not going to bother you. Yes, you are breaking Federal Law while following State law but the Feds have opted not to enforce the law...
First, Obama merely issued a direction to a federal department. It doesn't change the law, and he may rescind his order at any time.

So even if you are a user of marijuana under a state medical marijuana law, you are still violating federal law. You are also still a "prohibited person" under 18 USC 922(g)(3). And while Obama may have directed the DEA not to pursue prosecution of federal drug possession laws against persons using marijuana under a state medical marijuana law, he didn't say anything about not prosecuting a medical marijuana user for being a prohibited person in possession of a gun or for lying on a 4473.
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 01:47 PM   #18
Jim March
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 14, 1999
Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA
Posts: 7,322
Let's ask another question:

Where the hell did the Feds get the right to prohibit pot in the first place? To ban booze they needed a constitutional amendment. My copy of the constitution doesn't have one for pot.

While we're at it, how about another?

There's a bunch of cases that show how a law can be challenged if it was drafted with racist intent and is having a racially disparate effect today. See also Arlington Heights v. Metropolitan Housing and Hunter v. Underwood. You think that case law can't be applied to the pot ban? The original push for the ban was horrifically racist, with lots of talk about how it makes "darkies" (Latino and black) go after white women and other such idiocy.

For a law to be respected, it must be respectable. The pot ban doesn't even come close.

And for the record: I've literally never even tried it.
__________________
Jim March
Jim March is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 01:51 PM   #19
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
Quote:
You can dance around it all day that it's medical marijuana, doctor prescribed, it's an herb, a natural substance, blah, blah, blah- if it's illegal under Federal law you cannot truthfully answer question 11e on the Form 4473.

It's illegal under Federal law. Period.

What may be legal under your state law doesn't exempt you from Federal law. http://norml.org/index.cfm?wtm_view=&Group_ID=4575

Get caught lying on a Form 4473 gets you up to 10 years imprisonment and/or up to a $250,000 fine.
Since the police have started forcibly drawing blood from suspected drunk drivers, how about we all give a little sample next time we purchase a firearm? Let's take it a step further and prohibit smelly people from owning guns, and ask "Do you shower less that once a week?", and lock them up if they lie and answer no?

I suspect that few would wish to be labeled a "gun nut" by an anti, yet in the midst of a disastrous war on personal freedom some will freely throw around the "dopehead" label. I've read so many posts regarding defense against Mexican drug gangs. Has anyone stopped to think that we could render some of the gangsters powerless if we legalized pot? When was the last time you heard about someone in the U.S. getting shot over the distribution of whiskey?

Like it or not, marijuana users are dancing around you all over the place.
thawntex is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 02:05 PM   #20
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 6,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim March
...Where the hell did the Feds get the right to prohibit pot in the first place? To ban booze they needed a constitutional amendment. My copy of the constitution doesn't have one for pot....
Nonetheless, it is the current law. If anyone has the inclination and money to challenge it, the courts are open for business.

Of course, it might be a tough sell in court. Under the the Controlled Substances Act of 1970, the Federal Government claims complete jurisdiction over traffic in controlled substances (21 USC 801). This has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court in Gonzales v. Raich, 352 F.3d 1222 (2005).
Frank Ettin is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 02:12 PM   #21
dogtown tom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2006
Location: Plano, Texas
Posts: 1,529
Quote:
thawntex: ...Like it or not, marijuana users are dancing around you all over the place.
So are felons, illegal aliens and convicted wife beaters. What's your point?

And guess what, none of the above can legally buy or possess a firearm under Federal law. Potheads might outnumber me by 1,000,000:1, but like it or not they cannot legally buy or possess a firearm.


Don't like it? Change the law.
__________________
Need a FFL in north Dallas/Plano/Allen/Frisco/McKinney ? Just EMAIL me.

$20 transfers ($10 for CHL, active military,police,fire or schoolteachers)
dogtown tom is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 02:26 PM   #22
B.N.Real
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2008
Posts: 4,082
I feel extraordinarily bad for the people that actually have cancer that need the pot to keep an appetite.

The medical marijuana laws are being used to get past laws that depply criminalize pot possession.

Any drug that significantly impairs your judgement means you should'nt have a gun around you when you are using it.

Don't expect any police officer to give you a pass if he sees you with medical marijuana and a gun.

You'll definitely have to prove you need both and you are a legal owner of both.

Anyone that victimizes any people that use pot to help fight the effects of their fight against cancer by using medical marijuana as an excuse to get high cannot go to jail long enough in my opinion.

Cancer is no joke.
B.N.Real is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 03:44 PM   #23
thawntex
Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2008
Posts: 84
Quote:
So are felons, illegal aliens and convicted wife beaters. What's your point?

And guess what, none of the above can legally buy or possess a firearm under Federal law. Potheads might outnumber me by 1,000,000:1, but like it or not they cannot legally buy or possess a firearm.


Don't like it? Change the law.
The laws don't make a difference in many cases, and in other cases they do more harm than good. Those are my points.

You can prove that someone is a felon or illegal alien by looking at their criminal record and/or documentation, but you're living in a fantasy world if you think that the casual pot smoker is going to write yes on line 11e. Many of them have never had run-ins with the law, and they know that for all the talk of severe consequences that they'll walk out of Academy and probably never suffer a thing should they answer no.

Let me ask you a question. Do you really think that everyone you've ever transferred or received a gun for could pass a drug test on the spot?


Edit: Sorry to stray from the topic of medical marijuana. I don't want to ruin the discussion for everyone else, but I would like to address the questions put to me specifically.

Last edited by thawntex; March 15, 2010 at 04:34 PM.
thawntex is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 03:59 PM   #24
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,969
I sure wish we had MMJ when my first wife was dieing of cancer, she weighed 85 lbs when she died. We tried everything to get her to eat, food tasted bad and she had no energy or appetite. She was only 31 years old.

If it is legal in your state and you have a Drs prescription I see no problem with it. But get caught stoned and shooting, well that should be a no no. I feel it should be treated as booze. Inebriated is the same be it from smoking (or eating) or drinking.
markj is offline  
Old March 15, 2010, 05:01 PM   #25
SwampYankee
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: November 1, 2008
Location: I can be found on a number of other forums.
Posts: 1,333
Quote:
Just because you may not get prosecuted, doesn't make it legal.
TimT,

Duh. My exact words were:

Quote:
Yes, you are breaking Federal Law while following State law but the Feds have opted not to enforce the law.
I never said it was legal, I explicitly said it was illegal. I was actually addressing your previous comment, where you were wrong. I just have a pet peeve about people making comments that blatantly incorrect.

I NEVER addressed what you should put on the form. Personally, I have never smoked marijuana in my entire life so I don't give a rats behind what you put on the damn form. I don't have to lie when I fill it out...
SwampYankee is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13359 seconds with 7 queries