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Old March 26, 2010, 12:25 PM   #1
Kleinzeit
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The ACTUAL Impact of Health Care Reform on Gun Owners

There have been a few threads already in which folk have speculated about the impact of health care reform on gun owners. I don't know that we need another one.

What might be useful though is a thread in which people can document actual cases of the new legislation negatively - or positively - impacting on gun owners. I invite you to keep an eye out and to log such cases here for all of us to see and discuss.

But PLEEEAAASE... NO SPECULATION. NO INNUENDOS. NO partisan politics. NO commentary on health care legislation that is not specifically gun-related AND backed up by EVIDENCE that the impact on gun owners is (as best you can tell) REAL.
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Old March 26, 2010, 01:21 PM   #2
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I haven't been able to find anything direct, but the bill is written in such an obfuscated manner that it's hard to parse. A search of "gun" or "firearm" returns nothing.

There appears to be one possible indirect consequence, however. I've spoken to two representatives this week, both of whom are supporters of the 2A. Both have hinted that the bulk of their energy for the forseeable future will be spent fighting the health-care bill, as well as other budget-oriented matters, such as cap-and-trade.

As such, we may be coasting in neutral on gun rights in the legislature for the next couple of terms.
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Old March 26, 2010, 01:31 PM   #3
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There is an amendment in the legislation forbidding insurance companies from dropping coverage or raising rates because of a firearm in the home.
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Old March 26, 2010, 04:02 PM   #4
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Tom Servo, it seems that the otherwise anti-gun representatives are likewise preoccupied with other concerns. At least for the meanwhile. One never knows what's around the corner... I'm sure that, should guns become an issue, our pro-2A friends will be able to make time for it! Meanwhile, coasting in neutral is not a bad place to be.

cbrgator, this is directly relevant to the thread and excellent news. I certainly welcome other comments on this and would like to see the amendment and hear how it goes. In the meanwhile, this must surely represent a considerable protection for gun owners which they would never have had without government intervention. Something better than coasting in neutral, I think.

I don't doubt that many here are skeptical, but again: For the purposes of this thread, let's stick to what's real.
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Old March 26, 2010, 04:33 PM   #5
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A link to such an amendment about guns and its fate would be appreciated.

Start to rant and curse and you get banned. Just to be clear.

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Old March 26, 2010, 04:48 PM   #6
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Sure. Sorry about that.

Starts on Page 5, Line 11. Runs through Page 7 I think.

http://democrats.senate.gov/reform/m...-amendment.pdf
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Old March 26, 2010, 04:51 PM   #7
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Thanks!
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Old March 26, 2010, 07:15 PM   #8
Wildalaska
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New rules that affect sales of your firearms to gunshops, or via consignment....you will need to file a W-9 and get a 1099 at the end of the year ($600 or more)

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Old March 26, 2010, 07:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
New rules that affect sales of your firearms to gunshops, or via consignment....you will need to file a W-9 and get a 1099 at the end of the year ($600 or more)
Do you have a link to the appropriate piece of legislation?
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Old March 26, 2010, 08:12 PM   #10
Wildalaska
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Do you have a link to the appropriate piece of legislation?
Here is the PDF we got

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File Type: pdf 4348_001 (1).pdf (225.9 KB, 125 views)
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Old March 26, 2010, 09:08 PM   #11
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Text of the amendment cbrgator posted:

Quote:
‘‘(c) PROTECTION OF SECOND AMENDMENT GUN RIGHTS.—
‘‘(1) WELLNESS PROGRAMS AND PREVENTION
A wellness and health promotion activity implemented under subsection (a)(1)(D) may not require the disclosure or collection of any information relating to—
‘‘(A) the presence or storage of a lawfully-possessed firearm or ammunition in the residence or on the property of an individual; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition by an individual.
‘‘(2) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under
the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used for the collection of any information relating to—
‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of
a firearm or ammunition;
‘‘(B) the lawful use of a firearm or ammunition; or
‘‘(C) the lawful storage of a firearm or ammunition.
‘‘(3) LIMITATION ON DATABASES OR DATA BANKS.—None of the authorities provided to the Secretary under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act shall be construed to authorize or may be used to maintain records of individual ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition.
‘‘(4) LIMITATION ON DETERMINATION OF PREMIUM RATES OR ELIGIBILITY FOR HEALTH INSURANCE.--A premium rate may not be increased, health insurance coverage may not be denied, and a discount, rebate, or reward offered for participation in a wellness program may not be reduced or withheld under any health benefit plan issued pursuant to or in accordance with the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act on the basis of, or on reliance upon—
‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use or storage of a firearm or ammunition.
‘‘(5) LIMITATION ON DATA COLLECTION REQUIREMENTS FOR INDIVIDUALS.—No individual shall be required to disclose any information under any data collection activity authorized under the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act or an amendment made by that Act relating to—
‘‘(A) the lawful ownership or possession of a firearm or ammunition; or
‘‘(B) the lawful use, possession, or storage of a firearm or ammunition.’’.
Alaska, that's sneaky. I don't think it was geared towards regulating guns, but more towards sticking it to "the rich." Still, makes life harder for gun shops, as well as folks selling collections.
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Old March 27, 2010, 12:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
New rules that affect sales of your firearms to gunshops, or via consignment....you will need to file a W-9 and get a 1099 at the end of the year ($600 or more)
Applies to "persons engaged in the conduct of a trade or business." Ordinary folks selling a few guns (or even a whole collection) to a store are not affected.
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Old March 27, 2010, 01:54 PM   #13
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Applies to "persons engaged in the conduct of a trade or business." Ordinary folks selling a few guns (or even a whole collection) to a store are not affected.
Sorry dude, you are wrong. Read the statute...the word has come from the Tax Goddess that we need to start prepping for this and she knows more about taxes that all of us on this Board will ever know if we live to be 110. You go into a shop, sell $600 worth of guns, and that shop must issue you a 1099.

Which means you fill out a W-9.

Otherwise the shop eats your tax liability if they don't.

Nice records to build a database of gun owners on, jah? Nice hassle for the small biz owner.

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Old March 27, 2010, 01:54 PM   #14
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The person conducting the business has to report to the IRS that he paid you (if it's over 600 in a single year). If the IRS knows he paid you and you don't report it in your taxes, guess what happens.
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Old March 27, 2010, 02:21 PM   #15
Kleinzeit
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It's true: I haven't read the statute. Perhaps you could provide a link to the actual legislation, WA? Not just to a commentary on it?

As for it being some kind of cunning means of producing a gun registry scheme, you are firmly in the realm of speculation there. WHEN THAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS, I would be delighted to hear it reported on this thread (though I would not be delighted that it has happened :barf. In the meanwhile, though: No thanks. Please find another thread for that so this one doesn't get overrun by speculation like all the previous discussions on this topic.
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Old March 27, 2010, 03:06 PM   #16
Wildalaska
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Quote:
It's true: I haven't read the statute. Perhaps you could provide a link to the actual legislation, WA? Not just to a commentary on it?
I thinks it's referenced in the pdf..

Quote:
As for it being some kind of cunning means of producing a gun registry scheme, you are firmly in the realm of speculation there.
It was tongue in cheek, more so to illustrate the old adage that the more paperwork there is, the more folks will mess with it. IRS privacy laws would not allow that.

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Old March 27, 2010, 03:10 PM   #17
Kleinzeit
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It was tongue in cheek
Well, that's OK then.

There are plenty of people more than ready to believe this though...
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Old March 27, 2010, 05:32 PM   #18
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Is the pdf related only to gun shops or any retail vendor?
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Old March 27, 2010, 05:35 PM   #19
cbrgator
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Is the pdf related only to gun shops or any retail vendor?
I'd bet its all FFL holders.
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Old March 27, 2010, 05:40 PM   #20
alloy
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I ask because $600 has always been the magic 1099 number for reporting requirement of a contract labor expenditure in any business, and since I recognized it I thought maybe now they have just added goods, as well as services.
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Old March 27, 2010, 05:48 PM   #21
Kleinzeit
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There's absolutely nothing in it that is in any way specific to FFLs, or to firearms in any way.

Yes, that's how I read it: as adding good to services.
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Old March 27, 2010, 06:11 PM   #22
alloy
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Well apparently it accrues over time, and can take place over several transactions throughout the course of the year.

So now every customer from whom you buy a 10 dollar item...needs a file with a tax ID number, in case they come back 11 months later with a 590 dollar item and all of a sudden you gotta 1099 his butt or be in violation. Jeebus the recordkeeping.
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Old March 27, 2010, 06:14 PM   #23
Kleinzeit
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I'm sure it can't really be like that. I mean, supermarkets obviously won't be required to keep files for all their customers.
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Old March 27, 2010, 06:16 PM   #24
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I'm sure it can't really be like that. I mean, supermarkets obviously won't be required to keep files for all their customers.
Its not for customers its for vendors.

When you sell goods to someone for resale, it's 1099able

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Last edited by Wildalaska; March 27, 2010 at 06:27 PM.
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Old March 27, 2010, 06:17 PM   #25
alloy
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Page 2 under "summary of the enacted legislation"
No Kleinzeit, it would be if you run a grocery store and buy 30 bux worth of fresh carrots off some local farmer. Need to start a file on that guy in case he sells you a side of beef later..
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