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Old April 3, 2010, 02:50 PM   #26
JohnKSa
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This is just like all the other "will it hurt me in court" discussions.

If the circumstances are clear cut in your favor then it will almost certainly be a non-issue.

If the circumstances are questionable then it will be an issue unless the prosecutor is brain dead.
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Old April 4, 2010, 10:20 AM   #27
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The person who can obtain and is legally permitted to have such weapons is probably going to be a dealer. This type of dealer will also probably have considerable pull with the local government and law enforcement agencies.

I would expect a firearms dealer to have a considerable cache of weapons both in their homes and place of business. Therefore, I would expect such a person to utilize automatic weaponry to protect the cache. Lets say I had a cache of weaponry in my household or place of business. Would it be reasonable for me to have available just a pistol to protect said weaponry? Considering the stories about armed robberies and gang activity nowadays, I would be surprised if the firearms dealer did not have an automatic assault rifle at the ready to defend the weapons cache.
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Old April 4, 2010, 11:40 AM   #28
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I wouldn't do it.

I have buddies who do but to me the 2-3in length gain of an SBR (what he has) is not worth the expense and potential legal hassle.

I think few juries are going to understand the difference and it simply doesn't brief well to the lay person.
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Old April 4, 2010, 03:27 PM   #29
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I think few juries are going to understand the difference and it simply doesn't brief well to the lay person.
IF it gets to court any good defense attorney is going to be able to kill the weapon issue as it is irrelevant if the weapon was legally owned.

If they are going to try and hang you over using a SBS then they would probably have done the same had you used an 18" shotgun. It all depends on where you live. For example if you lived in Bloomberg's new York you'd probably face charges for shooting a burglar with a BB pistol.

If someone can dismember a burglar with a sword and not face charges, I don't think a NFA weapon is going to have too much difficulty.

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Old April 4, 2010, 05:56 PM   #30
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Generally a bad idea. An anti-gun district attorney would rake you over the coals, good shoot or not. Legal- yes. smart- probably not.
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Old April 4, 2010, 06:22 PM   #31
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I have also considered a suppressor for HD and if I had one I would use it. I don't want to lose my hearing. I don't see much advantage to a full auto. Maybe an SBS. Of course my primary HD gun is a 12 ga, so I would have to spend a lot to suppress it.

I guess if I had it and thought it offered an advantage I would use it. If it looked like I was headed to a nasty civil suit that would leave me with nothing I guess I could liquidate my assets, give it to charity, become a hobo before they filed the complaint.

The most likely full auto i would use would be a 9mm AR. I don't own one, but I guess it would be a pretty good HD weapon. It would be worth over 15K I believe. The police would confiscate it when they arrived and it might be a long time before I got it back no matter what.
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Old April 4, 2010, 08:35 PM   #32
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All you armchair gun show experts feel free to document on time that anything negative has ever happened because the defensive weapon was NFA.
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Old April 4, 2010, 08:54 PM   #33
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All you armchair gun show experts feel free to document on time that anything negative has ever happened because the defensive weapon was NFA.
Are you saying that the only way to know it's a bad idea to eat week-old roadkill is to find a case where someone ate some and the results were documented? (I am NOT saying that using an NFA weapon in self defense is as bad as eating week-old roadkill--just pointing out that it's often possible to accurately determine whether something is good or bad without actually finding a case in point.)

What's the point of having a brain, of being able to use inductive and deductive logic, if the only way to decide if something's good or bad is by actually having someone try it to find out?
Hey Frank, I just built a brand new kind of gun. Why don't you stand in front of it for a test. Don't worry, there's no documented evidence of a gun like this one ever harming anyone so it must be perfectly safe.
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Old April 5, 2010, 08:37 AM   #34
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No I am just saying spewing out crap advice that has no background in any supported fact is just that spew of crap.

It's just like the other gun show spew of ignorance.


We know that eating rotten meat is bad for our health, because either each of us has gotten sick from bad food, or knows someone who has gotten sick from bad food.
We do not know if defending ourself with NFA is bad for our health because no one knows of any case that bad things have happened.
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Old April 5, 2010, 10:33 AM   #35
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replying directly to the OP's first post.

I do have a reising SMG that i keep in my underbed cabinet (has a quick lock on it) and I have a minimum of 2 stick mags with it at all times fully loaded. This would not be my go to home defense gun in the case that somebody broke into my house in the middle of the night (would use a 92fs, p229, or my winny 1300 defender first), but it is available in case I need to use it if i can'g get to my other pre staged home defense weapons that are throughout the house.

in AZ we have castle doctorine and if the bad guy decides to not leave when i tell him to stop and get out, I will have no problem aiming center mass and pulling the trigger putting 25rds down range, then changing mags and getting ready to do the same if he has more friends that want to do harm to me or my family. My defense in court would be that I felt threatened that he would do bodily harm to my family and I, and that he failed to cease and decist when instructed to do so, and I used the means that I felt necessary at the time to stop the attacker from further presenting a harmfull or intimidating posture towards myself and my family in my domicile.
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Old April 5, 2010, 12:18 PM   #36
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Every round you fire in self defense comes with a lawyer.

Think about that when you turn the bullet hose on a bad guy.
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Old April 5, 2010, 01:06 PM   #37
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And if you own a machine gun or silencer the ATF can come visit your home any time without a search warrant and ask to see your gun, sometimes they even just stop you on the street and take you into a Blackout Suburban.
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Old April 5, 2010, 04:47 PM   #38
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And if you own a machine gun or silencer the ATF can come visit your home any time without a search warrant and ask to see your gun, sometimes they even just stop you on the street and take you into a Blackout Suburban.
That's really "old school". BATFE now implants tiny telecom devices in your house and vehicles that watch and record your every move digitally. Although, they do still use the Blackout Suburbans if you do anything "out of the ordinary" with your registered devices.
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Old April 5, 2010, 09:25 PM   #39
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We know that eating rotten meat is bad for our health, because either each of us has gotten sick from bad food, or knows someone who has gotten sick from bad food.
Yes, but we don't know for certain that eating week-old roadkill is bad because none of us has done it nor do we know of anyone else who has done it.

We COULD use some logical reasoning skills and determine that since week-old roadkill is mostly rotten meat with some road and tire materials mixed in and since eating rotten meat is bad for one's health that eating week old roadkill is also probably bad for one's health.
Quote:
We do not know if defending ourself with NFA is bad for our health because no one knows of any case that bad things have happened.
In a similar manner to the way we determined that eating roadkill is bad without actually trying it ourselves or finding a case where someone else tried it, a person who is an expert on legal proceedings and court cases work would likely be able to determine the wisdom of a particular course of action based on his experience even though he might not know of a case that exactly matches the case we're interested in.

In fact, that's exactly what has been done for us by a man who specializes in analyzing the legal implications and outcomes of various types of shootings. Just as we were able to determine (by using some basic logical skills and our knowledge) that eating roadkill is probably bad for us without actually finding a case where someone got sick from eating roadkill, he has been able to make the assessment (using his experience and knowledge in conjunction with some basic logical skills) that using NFA weapons in self-defense could have some negative repercussions.
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Old April 5, 2010, 10:56 PM   #40
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The point of this thread is moot.

NFA weapons are only accessible to people who have the money to spend and can get through the complex paperwork process. Usually they are dealers and have FFLs. There are a very limited number of people in the US who have these weapons. Those who have these weapons do not leave them lieing around the house or out at night, but generally stored and locked down. Most of these people that if the police took their NFA weapons then they probably would not get it back...at all. They also believe they are so expensive that leaving them out makes them more stealable.

So no one is going to use their NFA weapon for HD most likely unless it just so happens to be out of their sacred locked up stash.

The next point is the matter of the law. You can train and educate yourself all you want on the law and how a jury might act in a certain circumstance. However, you are going to do what you have to do in these delicate situations which may not always be the most legal thing to do or the most appropriate thing for a jury.

So...

#1 A very limited number of people have NFA weapons

#2 Those who do have them are usually really serious about guns and would not keep their prized Thompson Sub, the one they paid 20 grand to obtain, outside of a locked safe.

#3 In the event a situation occurs that is a matter of life and death, you will grab anything you can find to defend yourself... 22 Rifle, boiling pot of water, 6 cell maglight, or your Thompson sub. You wont have time to think...you will just do and more then likely whatever you do will get you into trouble. You will go to court and you might be found guilty of something. But have no fear. Sometimes its better to spend a little time in jail then to be killed by a crazy.

I read this article on CNN just now. Two dead bodies found in a trash can. These were probably the people who did not choose to own a weapon. People disappear all the time...all kinds of people. However, those who have weapons at the ready and are not afraid to use them are the ones who usually spend a little time in jail after the fact, but they do not end up in a trash can later on. So there are two evils...do what you have to do and go to jail or end up on some list of missing people...

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/05/...ex.html?hpt=T2

So this thread is pointless...
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Old April 6, 2010, 01:16 AM   #41
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I'd imagine suppressors and the SBS/R's would be far more appropriate and justifiable in a HD situation. I also think any blanket statement is not applicable. The variables of your local prosecutor, your unique scenario of use make any broad brush strokes even less useful than such things generally are.
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Old April 9, 2010, 12:34 AM   #42
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In a similar manner to the way we determined that eating roadkill is bad without actually trying it ourselves or finding a case where someone else tried it, a person who is an expert on legal proceedings and court cases work would likely be able to determine the wisdom of a particular course of action based on his experience even though he might not know of a case that exactly matches the case we're interested in.

In fact, that's exactly what has been done for us by a man who specializes in analyzing the legal implications and outcomes of various types of shootings. Just as we were able to determine (by using some basic logical skills and our knowledge) that eating roadkill is probably bad for us without actually finding a case where someone got sick from eating roadkill, he has been able to make the assessment (using his experience and knowledge in conjunction with some basic logical skills) that using NFA weapons in self-defense could have some negative repercussions.
And I have had this exact conversation with this man, if it is who I suspect.
His response was 'My Momma didn't raise me to be a test case." He believes that since there is no case law regarding this that it is fair game to a jury, and who knows what will happen. Like him, I don't want to be the test case.

Quote:
The point of this thread is moot
.

Actually those of us that actually own NFA items feel that this is a subject that deserves discussion. It is a topic that has been thought about by quite a few of us.

It was discussed here a while back. I wish I had been better prepared and written a better response back then.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288941

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Old April 12, 2010, 10:02 AM   #43
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Let's look at this logically. Is anyone here realy contemplating using a machinegun for home defense? What's the maximum number of home invaders that anyone has even heard of? Three? Maybe an outside chance of Four?

I'd say that if there were 4 home invaders, you could be logistically justified in using a full-auto weapon. But, anything less than that and you are simply better armed with a handgun, shotgun or some other kind of semi-auto gun.

Forget about the legal consequences for a moment - what I'm saying is that if I'm faced with 3 or less attackers, I'd be far more comfortable with a semi-auto. I'd be too concerned that I'd blow through my one magazine and not be able to locate another loaded mag quick enough! When I fire my AC556 - it "feels like" I've only got enough ammo for 2-3 bad guys. I'm sure that I'd have about 15-20 of those rounds damage walls, ceilings, floors, furniture, etc. It would be like using lighter fluid and a match to get rid of an ant infestation inside of your house!

Now, if we are talking suppressors - I guess you could always use it, take it off when your're done and toss it back in the safe or whatever. That wouldn't be too hard. Enough said on that.

As far as SBR's - if it wasn't for the difficulty of storing it when not in use, I'd say that would be a pretty good choice for inside your house. Large capacity, more accurate and more powerful than a handgun and easy to use.
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Old April 12, 2010, 07:41 PM   #44
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I have found this thread very interesting. I only know of one person who has any NFA weapons. He doesn't keep one for HD. His reason was that he isn't willing to risk a 10K gun for some skimeball to get the drop on him. As much as we train, the BG's could split up or something. I figured that sbr's and sbs's wouldn't be put under as much scrunity from prosecutors or investigators. I have actually thought of getting a shotgun and converting it to a SBS for a HD weapon.
I would imagine that no matter what you use defending your person or home. That item will be taken by investigators until it is determined that your actions were justified. It wouldn't matter if it was a full - auto or the wife's cast iron skillet.
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Old April 13, 2010, 01:36 PM   #45
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Let's look at this logically. Is anyone here realy contemplating using a machinegun for home defense?
Machineguns are not the only NFA item suitable for defense. I have a 12" 20 gauge AOW I use at times and another person mentioned a short barreled shotgun. Suppressors also have use.
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Old April 13, 2010, 03:49 PM   #46
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Machineguns are not the only NFA item suitable for defense.
I realize that - must not have read the rest of my post......


Now, if we are talking suppressors - I guess you could always use it, take it off when your're done and toss it back in the safe or whatever. That wouldn't be too hard. Enough said on that.

As far as SBR's - if it wasn't for the difficulty of storing it when not in use, I'd say that would be a pretty good choice for inside your house. Large capacity, more accurate and more powerful than a handgun and easy to use.


Sorry I didn't mention sawed-off shotguns, but IMHO, it's basically the same as an SBR.
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Old April 13, 2010, 11:41 PM   #47
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Now, if we are talking suppressors - I guess you could always use it, take it off when your're done and toss it back in the safe or whatever.
Again, in a very clear cut situation this would probably be a non-issue.

If it's not clear cut, and there is a detailed investigation the fact that you used a suppressor but removed so that its use would not be detected could affect the results of the investigation in a manner that would cause your story to be suspect.

For example, GSR on the person shot is often used to determine if they were shot from very close range. A suppressor will definitely affect GSR significantly and could make it appear that someone was shot from farther away than actually occurred. If that result contradicts your story then you are left with some unpleasant options.

You're better off not trying to alter the scene before the police arrive.
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Old April 14, 2010, 02:41 PM   #48
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The point of this thread is moot.

NFA weapons are only accessible to people who have the money to spend and can get through the complex paperwork process. Usually they are dealers and have FFLs. There are a very limited number of people in the US who have these weapons. Those who have these weapons do not leave them lieing around the house or out at night, but generally stored and locked down. Most of these people that if the police took their NFA weapons then they probably would not get it back...at all. They also believe they are so expensive that leaving them out makes them more stealable.

So no one is going to use their NFA weapon for HD most likely unless it just so happens to be out of their sacred locked up stash.
Not really moot. I would imagine that most full-auto weapons are very expensive. However, a SBS or SBR is not. $200.00 patience and diligence is all that is required for the stamp. You can obtain a 590 Mossberg for less than $500.00. With some basic tools and metal working knowledge you can own a SBS.

People who can afford 20 grand for a Thompson, can also afford a really good attorney.

I would also imagine anyone who is into collecting firearms to the point where a 20K Thompson is part of that collection. That person is going to have a designated HD gun as well as a plan for using it. I would think this person would also have a home security system of some sort to protect a valuable gun collection.

You never know though. On one hand I think it would be crazy to have a weapon of that value for HD. You take every worldly possession I own and pile it in the yard. I couldn't buy a Thompson with it, no where near it. I also don't have a possession I would kill for. I have a HD for the same reason most of us here do. To protect my family. So on that note, if I had one, and if I had to, I would use it to protect what is most important to me.
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Old January 16, 2011, 07:03 PM   #49
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I use a suppressor on 2 of my HD rifles. (with frag rounds in them)
no way would I use a MG for that reason (and I own a few)
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Old January 21, 2011, 07:36 AM   #50
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quote: "All you armchair gun show experts feel free to document on time that anything negative has ever happened because the defensive weapon was NFA."
I'm not an expert of any kind but will this work? I'm guessing you meant one time, rather than on time.

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