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Old March 8, 2010, 08:48 AM   #1
DRice.72
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Does anyone keep a NFA weapon for HD?

I got to thinking about that over the weekend. Would there be any legal ramifications for doing such if the need ever arose to use it? I realize for most people it would not be practical, especially those who live in areas where over penetration may be of concern. But for the sake of the question lets say you have no concerns about shooting your family or neighbors. I'm also talking about full autos, not sbs's, or sbr's.
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Old March 8, 2010, 09:20 AM   #2
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No NFA for home defense

I would recommend Massad Ayoob's book The Truth About Self Protection There is an very good likelihood that the Defender will be going to court, even in a justifiable shooting. The BG's lawyer or Prosecutor/DA (Shakespeare Henry VI, Part 2, 4. 2) is going to ask why you had to shoot the BG over 15+ times. They will paint you to be on the edge of illegal, though you are, because that Jury of your Peers aren't really your Peers. They are probably way less knowledgeable than you re:NFA laws. You'll probably walk away OK, albeit poorer. IMO
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Old March 8, 2010, 10:17 AM   #3
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Let me take you out of context...

Quote:
lets say you have no concerns about shooting your family or neighbors
If you were to use such a weapon in a home defense shooting you would be probably be taken to pieces in a civil case provided the local law enforcement decided that it was a clean shooting and didn't press criminal charges.

Now before someone comes in with the "We have a castle law in my state so I can shoot anyone I please if they are in my home." Most castle laws don't protect you from a charge of negligence. That is exactly what they will use against you in such a case. "You have no concerns about shooting your family or neighbors, when someone comes in your home you hose them down with a submachinegun." A few lines like that from a savvy lawyer and 12 of your peers will be thinking you should be giving Joey McCrackhead's wife $200,000 for your negligent behavior.
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Old March 8, 2010, 11:21 AM   #4
DRice.72
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I figured as much. I was wondering if anyone took on that risk, and if so why.
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Old March 8, 2010, 11:55 AM   #5
Skans
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Not at all. If you have a registered machinegun, you can legally use it for home defense. There is no law prohibiting you from doing this.

Google "The Harry Bekwith Incident".
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Old March 8, 2010, 12:26 PM   #6
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Even if it's legal, well and good, once it hits the public venues that someone shot someone (no matter the circumstance) with a machine gun, the anti's will have a field day with it.
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Old March 8, 2010, 12:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Even if it's legal, well and good, once it hits the public venues that someone shot someone (no matter the circumstance) with a machine gun, the anti's will have a field day with it.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the situation. If you are fending off multiple well armed attackers, it may very well be appropriate force. Read the Bekwith Incident. http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html

In any event, the question was "is it legal". And the answer is: "yes it is".
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Old March 8, 2010, 01:30 PM   #8
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I keep NFA for HD. In this case, a PS90 SBR with a silencer attached.

It's my life - I'm going to use the best possible tool to defend it.
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Old March 8, 2010, 01:55 PM   #9
Skans
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Quote:
keep NFA for HD. In this case, a PS90 SBR with a silencer attached.
If I could get a silencer for my 10mm, I might change my mind and use it for HD. I shot it once and forgot my hearing protection - the report was much louder than I expected.

My sheriff will sign for machineguns but not silencers. Could do the trust thing........ but just not that interested.
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Old March 8, 2010, 01:59 PM   #10
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I don't know any company that rates a 40cal silencer for 10mm pistols, unfortunately.
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Old March 8, 2010, 02:40 PM   #11
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There's more than just full auto in the NFA.

Would I use a full auto for home defense? Not likely. They're way too expensive to risk losing- too many stories of guns going missing while in police possession.

Would I use a SBR for home defense? Probably. I don't have one, but there's no extra lethality or anything over a non-SBR.

Would I use a suppressor for HD? Certainly. I plan to leave mine on my go-to AR once I get everything through the ATF. The suppressor can always be removed and kept. You can make a great case for a suppressor on the weapon as being a health and safety issue- permanent hearing loss is indeed permanent.
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Old March 8, 2010, 03:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
I would recommend Massad Ayoob's book The Truth About Self Protection There is an very good likelihood that the Defender will be going to court, even in a justifiable shooting.
Massad Ayoob has stated that every single case of a NFA weapon being used has gone to a Grand Jury at a minimum. How much money do you have set aside for legal defense funds?

Quote:
Even if it's legal, well and good, once it hits the public venues that someone shot someone (no matter the circumstance) with a machine gun, the anti's will have a field day with it.
It's not just the public views it is the costs involved.
If I defend myself with a handgun or shotgun, there are multiple cases of that happening and depending on location I may not see the inside of a courtroom.
Defend yourself with a NFA item and you will see the inside of a courtroom. Granted if you were justified, you might get off, but at what cost? It will get very expensive very fast. I don't feel the need to give the D.A. anything extra to have to look into or defend myself against.

I will stick to what is proven. Handgun or Shotgun. Until there is more case law regarding this stuff I don't want that headache.

One thing to remember. There are a lot of gun owners that don't think NFA stuff is legal. Heck some of them don't think it should be legal for that matter. How many gun owners do you think you may get on your jury? Now look at what the public thinks about NFA stuff. Most have no idea that any of this stuff is legal and most don't think it should be. Everything they know, they know from Hollywood. Now remember how many of those people will be sitting on your jury. As stated before. that is one less hassle I would want to have to deal with.

Last edited by WoofersInc; March 8, 2010 at 03:07 PM.
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Old March 8, 2010, 04:00 PM   #13
PTK
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Quote:
Massad Ayoob has stated that every single case of a NFA weapon being used has gone to a Grand Jury at a minimum. How much money do you have set aside for legal defense funds?
Both of the cases that he knows about, yes. In one case it was as simple as "ok, you're good." and the victim went home to patch up (the Beckwith incident)

One important note - NFA owners have gone above/beyond to get background checks and such to own them. A competent lawyer will work that in favorably.

Last edited by PTK; March 8, 2010 at 04:09 PM.
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Old March 8, 2010, 04:19 PM   #14
DRice.72
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I did exclude sbs's and sbr's from my question. I would def use a sbs for HD. I believe that a shotgun with a 14" barrell and youth stock would make an excellent HD weapon. I really was more curious about the full auto weapons,and mainly because of the rate of fire.
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Old March 8, 2010, 07:48 PM   #15
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Yup, 20 gauge AOW. Recoil is a PITA but it is stupid easy to aim and 20 pellets of #3 buck is gonna put someone down.

Quote:
Massad Ayoob has stated that every single case of a NFA weapon being used has gone to a Grand Jury at a minimum. How much money do you have set aside for legal defense funds?
No offense to Mr Ayoob, but he is citing from a sample size of TWO. One of those, the grand jury was just a formality and sent him home.

If it wasn't for the Hughes Amendment you would probably see more FA used for HD, but nowadays they are too valuable for that purpose because of the artificial scarcity.
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Old March 8, 2010, 07:58 PM   #16
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I defend my home with a Wilson NFA 12 gauge loaded with 00 Buckshot....14 inch barrel
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Old March 9, 2010, 01:48 PM   #17
Willie Lowman
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To get back to the OPs question again, I don't think there would be a legal restriction to using a transferable machinegun for home defense. However, no shooting occurs in a vacuum. There could be very serious civil/social/political issues with using one.

While we are talking about Mas' articles, he wrote one recently about a old man who shot a coke fiend with a .410. The man had witnesses testifying that he shot in self defense. He still faced a difficult legal battle with the family of said coke fiend.

A machine gun can be a powerful weapon to defend your homestead and it could be a figurative weapon used to destroy you in the court room after the fact. I guess you won't know till you get there.

--For what it is worth, when I was a kid, my dad had a friend who had been a career Air Force man. He had a few transferable MGs. One of which was a Ruger AC556 that he kept in a closet. He referred to it as his "door gun." So, yes some people do keep registered machine guns for HD.
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Old March 9, 2010, 02:05 PM   #18
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If you want to use a full auto weapon for personal defense so be it. BUT I would never suggest that you do so. Why? Your weapon will be confiscated and the chances of getting it back are slim to none. If you do get it back it will only be with the assistance of a very good attorney billing at $500.00 an hour. The lawsuit that will follow, either by Mr. Crackhead, or the widow of Mr. Crackhead, now add in the cost of paying off everyone in the neighborhood, and not to mention the cost of replacing the windows you will shoot out and re plastering and painting your home. But there is an upside to the later you really wanted to upgrade the windows in your home and this would be an opportune time to add some new insulation in the walls.
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Old March 9, 2010, 08:00 PM   #19
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You guys can talk all day about the appropriateness of defending yourself with a machine gun against a burglar. The truth is that if some stranger was in your house charging at you then you won't be thinking about the legal ramifications. You will be grabbing any weapon you can get your hands on in a short time...revolver, chair, coffee mug filled with the hot stuff...you won't be thinking about what the prosecutor is going to do or what the press might say.

Lets say its a home invasion where you are upstairs. You wont have time to prepare your Thompson Sub unless its sitting right there loaded and ready. More then likely you will grab whats available which will probably be a small pistol...

Lets say you put a 30 round magazine of ammo into some guy in your house. Well, you are probably going to court and off to jail at some point, but at least spending 3-4 years in the prison is better then being carried by 6...the way the law works is that if you shoot anyone as a civilian then more then likely someone is going to find a way to make you spend a few years in the prison whether it was justified or not...machine gun or pistol...whatever... Just be happy to have your life.

Last edited by JohnH1963; March 9, 2010 at 08:06 PM.
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Old March 9, 2010, 09:19 PM   #20
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Do look at your local laws, too, for instance, in AZ it is legal to carry concealed any lawfully owned firearms on the National Registry. We also have a very simple law stating NO civil liabilty for justified conduct. If I use a Serbu Shorty or AC556 in self defense, and it is ruled as such, the perpetrators family may not sue. Period. Would I use such? No, can't afford anything NFA, for one, and the fact that a full auto firearm is highly likely to sway the grand jury against the user.
It is legal, and you do have many legal protections in AZ, including Castle Doctrine, but I'd rather not do it, myself.
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Old March 12, 2010, 05:12 PM   #21
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I keep a Wilson Combat/Scattergun Technologies Semi Auto SBS built on a Remington 1187 platform as my HD weapon of choice alternating between TAP Buck and Regular Birdshot.
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Old March 14, 2010, 10:56 PM   #22
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Dunno much about NFA's as you call them (I still call them class III's) but have toyed with the idea of owning one for decades. If and when I do own one it will likely spend it's life in a good safe and will be useless for HD, but I have 18" shotguns and trusted handguns for that. I can live without the raised eyebrows from the grand jury and local leo's as well. I'm more concerned about an unsecured NFA falling into the wrong hands than I am about being undergunned by home invaders. If tomorrow a band of SOF's kicks down my door with firepower superior to what I have at hand I'll chalk it up to bad Karma and do the best I can.
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Old April 3, 2010, 12:11 AM   #23
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An SBS would beat a FA head to head.

And it would put the defender on less thin ice in a civil proceeding.

Just my opinion


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Old April 3, 2010, 11:33 AM   #24
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Relative to Beckwith's use of an AW, it's well to remember that the incident occured well prior to Florida's passage of it's castle doctrine.

I rather doubt that there'd be a Grand Jury presentment under current law..............Beckwith was way, way justified and faced with multiple opponents as well!

He done GOOD!
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Old April 3, 2010, 12:30 PM   #25
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pax posted this link to an article by Glenn Meyer in another thread.

I hope that pax doesn't mind my citing the article in this thread. It is a great article that speaks directly to the opening post in your thread, and I encourage you to read it if you haven't already:

http://www.astcweb.org/public/public...-Armed-Citizen

According to the article, using an NFA weapon would be unwise.

Regards,

Doc
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