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Old March 8, 2010, 09:58 PM   #26
MisterPX
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I prefer rifle. Can do what teh shotgun does, more often more compact, and could actually stop a threat like my evil twin, whereas a shotgun would not.
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Old March 8, 2010, 10:13 PM   #27
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12 gauge for us, and my husband and I own a Mossberg 500 with an adjustable recoil-absorbing stock to make it easier for me to handle. The rifle would be helpful if we lived in the country and might need to deal with/fend off a rampaging bear or mountain lion, or if we lived in a war zone and needed to deal with an attacking force. We live in a city, however, in a condominium located in a quiet neighborhood. The walls are not thick, and the density of people in the area is quite high. Rifle fire would be entirely too prone to penetrate outside walls, etc, and hit innocent bystanders, and we don't have clear fields of fire going more than a few feet in most directions.

That doesn't mean we'll never get a rifle, but if we do it will probably be to satisfy my husband's desire to own an "evil black rifle" (as he calls it) for target shooting than because we need it or would use it for self defense.
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Old March 8, 2010, 11:20 PM   #28
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Why does everyone think the rifle is such a huge penetrator? Do I read this chart wrong?

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Old March 9, 2010, 01:10 AM   #29
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I don't think you read the chart wrong, and most people are of the misguided notion that rifle projectiles penetrate too much.

It's all about selecting the proper bullet and bullet luancher. Many people, IMHO, tend to believe in urban myths instead of relying on easily available data.

Both the rifle and the shotgun have their place in home defense. It's up to you to select the right tool for the job at hand.

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Old March 9, 2010, 01:33 AM   #30
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If limited only to the ammunition choices in the OP, I'd take a .223 rifle. Now, if you let me load the shotty with #4 Buck instead of 00, I might feel differently.
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Old March 9, 2010, 07:42 AM   #31
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Why does everyone think the rifle is such a huge penetrator? Do I read this chart wrong?
Another thing to keep in mind is that is a "typical" wound profile, not guaranteed. Behavior of M855 can vary widely from lot to lot and even from rifle to rifle within the same lot. About 15% of the time, it will take as much as 8" of gel before it begins to yaw and that can be a problem if you are trying to limit penetration.

However, if you stick to soft point offerings, OTMs, etc., you get a lot more predictable performance out of 5.56 and it does limit penetration.
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Old March 9, 2010, 10:05 AM   #32
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I feel pretty safe with my shortened 12 ga pump loaded up with 00 Buck. 18 1/4" barrel, 29" overall. It's compact, packs a punch and it's reliable. recoil is a .... well, you all know where I'm going with that. But I have no problem with really anything that could be used to defend yourself. My shotgun or .45 isn't around for some reason I'd feel pretty good with my trusty AK
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Old March 9, 2010, 12:56 PM   #33
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I am not small, and i do not often have houseguests. I will stick with the 18.5" barrelled Mossy 500 pump 12. I have limited experience with carbines & rifles when compared to a lifetime of shotgun use. I do keep the XD45 handy as well, for backup.

One point i may have missed but didn't see is that of law enforcement reactions. Out here in BFE Mississippi, i doubt there is a LEO who would be surprised to find a homeowner with a pump 12, but i'm not sure they would have the same reaction to a "black rifle". Hence, i wouldn't reach first for my SKS (even though it's OD) for home defense. In a HD situation, law enforcement's reaction to your actions should be a secondary consideration to defending your life, but it should be considered.
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Old March 9, 2010, 01:12 PM   #34
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A shotgun is fine, but it has 6 shots and needs to be reloaded. My AR has 5 times that many rounds in 1 magazine and can be reloaded with 30 more rounds faster than I could put 2 into the shotgun.
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Old March 9, 2010, 01:27 PM   #35
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I'd stick with a good shotty myself. I've trusted my 870 for HD for some time.
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Old March 9, 2010, 01:39 PM   #36
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Quote:
Posted by orangello: One point i may have missed but didn't see is that of law enforcement reactions. Out here in BFE Mississippi, i doubt there is a LEO who would be surprised to find a homeowner with a pump 12, but i'm not sure they would have the same reaction to a "black rifle". Hence, i wouldn't reach first for my SKS (even though it's OD) for home defense. In a HD situation, law enforcement's reaction to your actions should be a secondary consideration to defending your life, but it should be considered.
Excellent observation...and it applies not only to law enforcement.

If it is otherwise an "open and shut case" (no prior relationship of any kind between the homeowner and the attacker, clear evidence of unlawful forcible entry, no indications from the forensic evidence or earwitnesses that excessive force may have been used or that the person shot may have been trying to depart, no duty to retreat), I shouldn't think that the type of weapon would enter into it (lay opinion).

Start changing those elements and that could change. Jury simulations have shown the type and appearance of firearms used can indeed have an influence on outcomes in trial court.

Here's an excerpt from a study on the subject:

Quote:
... For instance, the Ruger Mini-14 rifle is equivalent in power and lethality to the AR-15 but it is a wooden stocked rifle of a more sporting appearance. It serves as an important comparison to the AR-15. ...one is more likely to be perceived as an aggressive weapon or menacing weapon.

... We focused on two gun scenarios, the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14. Both are equally potent but the latter looks less aggressive to some. We also analyzed judgment of guilt versus innocence. In direct comparison - the AR-15 yielded significantly longer mean recommended sentences in the order of seven to nine years as compared to the Ruger (approximately two and a half years). On the verdict side, the percent of guilty judgments was approximately 65% for the AR-15 vs. 45% for the Ruger.
The experiments were performed in Texas.

http://www.astcweb.org/public/public...-Armed-Citizen

Last edited by OldMarksman; March 9, 2010 at 02:19 PM. Reason: Add reference to duty to retreat
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Old March 9, 2010, 02:55 PM   #37
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What kind of person would do a study like that? He must be someone from NY!

That's just terrible.
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Old March 9, 2010, 03:45 PM   #38
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I agree with Deaf Smith. I would be quite happy with my M1 Carbine. if I did not have my .308. It is very effective at close range.
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Old March 9, 2010, 04:11 PM   #39
KingEdward
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I use what I have which is the 20 gauge pump (mossberg 500)

But I too can see the pros of the AR15 having shot it
and handled it a good deal.

I would not want to be on the business end of a 20 gauge
slug or buckshot.
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Old March 9, 2010, 04:12 PM   #40
OldMarksman
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Quote:
What kind of person would do a study like that? He must be someone from NY!
He's one of a handful of people whose stuff I tend to bookmark--along with that of Mas Ayoob, Fiddletown, Kathy Jackson, and a couple of others.

I had considered noting the author, but that would have deprived readers of the fun of discovering it themselves.
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Old March 9, 2010, 04:26 PM   #41
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It's the 12 ga. for me. My Mossy 500 has the short barrel, 7 round tube (+ 1 in the chamber) and folding stock for max manuverability inside my house. My wife is small but can shoot it if she has to. Our kids are grown and gone so we don't have to worry about friendlies getting in the way. As some others have said, an AR would be nice for a lot of reasons, but I don't have one and won't be getting one any time soon.
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Old March 9, 2010, 04:32 PM   #42
WW2
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12 Guage or .223 Rem. Rifle?

On body at all times = Bersa Thunder .380 7+1 capacity.

For long guns:

I generally put my Remington 870 12 Guage in HD mode with its 18.5" barrel and AR style collapsable stock. It measures just 36" and has 7+1 capacity of 2 3/4" shells.



If I want it really small, I remove the stock and use the pistol grip which shortens it to just 30"! :barf:



My rifle is a Remington 7615 in .223 (5.56 Nato) calibre. It has 10 round capacity (the legal limit in California). It measures just over 36" in length.



Both are pump action and of the same length, so operation is nearly identical. I prefer the shotgun to the rifle in a home defense situation.

Here is what I am defending. It is at the end of the street with a hillside behind and neighbors to the left and right. The street runs at an angle to the front of the house so shooting toward the front of the house would hit other houses in about 50 yards. Any suggestions on a tactical defense of this floorplan?

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Old March 9, 2010, 04:57 PM   #43
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I prefer the handgun first, . . . followed by AR, . . . then depending on situation, either more AR, . . . 12 ga semi-auto shotty, . . . or M1A.

I live in Boonieville, . . . so the platform choice is dependant on the threat, . . . not having close neighbors, . . . only my wife and I in the house, . . . she'll be in lock-down on the phone to 911, . . . and I can have any one of the three in my hands in less than 5 seconds from prone & covered in the bed, . . . to ready to defend.

May God bless,
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Old March 9, 2010, 05:43 PM   #44
Esteban32696
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I like a shotgun for home defense. Pistol is 2nd.
In MY opinion, something home defense shotgun users overlook , is the pattern of their shotguns. A 12ga., 28" full choke barrel, with 3" shells, 00 buck, in a small room, will not be much more than shooting a rifle ! Get an estimate of the maximum distance of the area inside your home you would be shooting. Take your shotgun,, no matter what type it is & go shooting. You can then determine what is going to be the best " stopping load." You may be surprised to see that light loads with #8,6, or 4's will be better than anything else.
A good report;

http://www.gunsandammo.com/content/t...shotgun?page=1
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Old March 9, 2010, 06:29 PM   #45
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With the exception of an invasion by an army of Hell's Angeles, why in the world would you want to spray you home with 30 rounds from an AR or AK?
9 rounds of 9MM from 12ga 00 Buck shell at THE SAME TIME will stop anyone in their tracks.
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Old March 9, 2010, 06:30 PM   #46
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I was out at the range this past week with some buddies, who were all practicing on various targets with their CCW and HD weapons. I had my pistol out also, and was doing the same. The time came for me to practice a few rounds with my HD shotgun that I had just rebuilt with some replacement parts. I fired one shot at 50 feet with 00 buck at one of the paper targets we had been using. It was taped to a cardboard box. This one shot obliterated the box & target completely, reaffirming for me that nothing really compares to a 12-gauge for home defense. I know that hostage situations may be reason for other options, but a BG really doesn't stand a chance against a shotgun. My vote goes to the 12-gauge.
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Old March 9, 2010, 07:05 PM   #47
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I live in a small apt. so my go to is my pistol (either XD 9mm or USP .45) followed by my Mini-14 and finally my Win 1300. This is based on practicality as well as the confidence I have with the weapons.

I have much less practice with the shotgun because honestly, the recoil beats me up. I'm 5'9" and 160, and I can fire hundreds of rounds through my pistol or Mini, but about 30-40 rounds into shooting the 12ga, I'm ready to move on to something else.
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Old March 9, 2010, 07:25 PM   #48
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I dunno, my factory folding Mini-14 looks pretty agressive

Would they think less of me if I had the 80 round mag in it?

Spray my home with 30 rounds? Are you insane? () just because I have 30 rounds doesn't mean I'm lighting them all...but on the other hand, me having to reach for a freakin rifle at home means the feces has hit the fan and to heck with the house, let's address staying alive first!
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Old March 9, 2010, 07:30 PM   #49
MisterPX
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WW2, a big deficiency I see with your homeplan, (presuming you sleep in master bedroom), is that the master bath runs open with bedroom 2, thus having you deal with 2 sources of entry.

Quote:
9 rounds of 9MM from 12ga 00 Buck shell at THE SAME TIME will stop anyone in their tracks.
Wouldn't stop evil twin
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Old March 10, 2010, 10:36 AM   #50
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I'm with Deaf Smith and Hardball. I typically have a 20g OU upstairs for the wife and ease of use. Loaded with #3 Buck. And, a S&W M-19 loaded with 38 +P. But, I also have my trusty M1 Carbine. It is loaded with 110g SP ammo. It is light, handy and easy to operate. My handgun upstairs is a 1911. the 1911 is easy to hold behind the back when there this a late night knock on the door.

I also have a couple 12g in the safe but like the 20g, they are primarily hunting and clay guns.

I had an AK and SKS. Have an M4. The M4 is great but bulkier than the M1c. I love my M1c.
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