The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 7, 2010, 03:24 PM   #26
mony
Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2010
Posts: 18
Mr. Dee: "I must ask... why would anyone need a loaded gun at a gun show? Why would anyone want a loaded gun at a gun show?"

Good questions. I believe that anti-gun activists would ask the same questions, and help make Palmetto's point. Why would any need/want a loaded gun at a . . . . . . fill in the blank. grocery store, gas station, motel on the road, home.
What if an armed criminal with criminal intent pulled a loaded gun for a robbery or worse, at a gun show, and no one could stop him because no one was carrying? I realize that some dealers could load up pretty fast, but it makes one think doesn't it.
mony is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 03:26 PM   #27
Palmetto-Pride
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 1,927
I can see every ones point of view thanks to all that have responded. Hey I am pro gun show, pro gun and pro gun rights. I do understand the need for the sign, but I will say I think it could be worded in a different way.
__________________
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

-Margaret Thatcher-
Palmetto-Pride is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 04:09 PM   #28
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
Mr Mony... Sir;

I'm not suggesting or advocating that anyone go about their personal business unarmed. In fact I suggested that the promoter provide a location so people CAN re-arm for the street before they leave the protection of a gun show.

No... I dont know about your experiences. Mine are mostly from Florida where I have attended many gun show's of all sizes. As a matter of fact I went to a small local show today. Gun shows tend to be populated by people who... well people who have guns. God forbid... what if someone had an A/D, or an N/D at a gun show? How would 250 unorganized armed men and women react? Many would pull their own gun, and be ready to use DPH. One or two may even return fire. How would you react? How would you suggest a person react to hearing a shot behind them and turn to see a seedy looking guy with a gun in his hand? ( just another CCW) How will he react seeing you drawing down on him? IMHO It's a recipe for disaster.

As I stated before... All the gun show's i've ever attented were pretty well crowded. With buyers, browsers, their children, vendors, their children, and staffers and their children. Even if there was a DPF situation... is everyone skilled enough to take a shot in such a crowded place? How does anyone differentiate between the bad actor, and just another CCW?

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. It's common sense to control who is armed is such a situation. This isnt an argument for anti-gunners. I believe it's proof that Pro gun people can use common sense.

Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 04:11 PM   #29
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,092
Quote:
Here in Tennessee all gun shows have this posted. You are not even allowed to bring a loaded clip inside.
Thank God, all my guns use magazines.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 04:35 PM   #30
mony
Member
 
Join Date: February 20, 2010
Posts: 18
I agree Mr. Dee. All points well made and well taken.
mony is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 06:17 PM   #31
sewerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2005
Location: hurricane alley, florida
Posts: 304
here's one that i have posted priviously without any responce.

why is it that a florida resident holding a concealed weapons permit is still charged for the quick check /back ground check when the state law states we are exempt?

every dealer /pawn shop charges this disregard to the permit holders.

i feel budget raped!

sewerman
__________________
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny!" Thomas Jefferson

"They that can give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety!" Benjamin franklin

The Armed Citizen PREVENTS tyranny!
sewerman is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 08:34 PM   #32
Glenn Dee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 9, 2009
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,487
Mr Sewerman;

Have you kept up with your origonal thread? I believe that there is a consensus answer already available there. The Florida statute requiring the back ground check, and allowing a permit holder to be waived has expired. It expired when it became federally mandated that all buyers be checked. Go back to the thread you started, and catch up on the replies.

Glenn Dee
Glenn Dee is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 09:37 PM   #33
gc70
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,497
Those of us in North Carolina do not have to worry about the hypocrisy of such signs at gun shows; our legislature has thoughtfully made concealed carry illegal at events for which admission is charged.
gc70 is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 10:07 PM   #34
sewerman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2005
Location: hurricane alley, florida
Posts: 304
gleen dee:
thank you for the insight, my info is from the 2009 site:
The fee for the instant check shall be
$8.00. Exempt from the instant check are licensed dealers, manufacturers,
importers, collectors, persons with a concealed carrying license, law
enforcement, correctional and correctional probation officers.

http://www.nraila.org/Images/us_map.gif

i will educate my further.thnax
__________________
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny!" Thomas Jefferson

"They that can give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety!" Benjamin franklin

The Armed Citizen PREVENTS tyranny!
sewerman is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 10:54 PM   #35
vranasaurus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,175
When it comes to gun shops, gun shows, and ranges a lot of gun owners tend to feel less inhibited and often forget the basics of gun safety.

How many times have you been swept with a muzzle at walmart or the grocery store by someone who pulls out their carry piece? Now how about at a gun shop, shooting range, or gun show?

I don't want every john wayne wannabe and their brother carrying loaded guns at a gunshow constantly pulling them out to try accesories. God forbid a situation arises that requires the use of deadly force and their will a ton of dead bodies from bubba and his boys shooting the place up.

One bad guy with one gun won't kill as many people at a gunshow as 50 people who draw their carry pieces to shoot back.

If shots are fired at a gun show I am getting on the floor and trying to crawl toward the nearest exit.
vranasaurus is offline  
Old March 7, 2010, 11:17 PM   #36
C Philip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 784
Yes, it is hypocritical in my opinion, but still you have to respect private property, their show, their rules. Perhaps not the best analogy, but it seems to me this is like having a motorcycle show where you couldn't ride your bike in, you had to trailer it and the gas tank has to be empty. I'm going to wager that the number of fatalities related to motorcycles is higher than to CCW permit holders.

The hypocritical part is this: "I can carry safely, but those other guys having guns scares me!" Don't you all see this is exactly the mindset of the people who only want the police and military to have guns? Yes, some people carry who don't know the rules of safety, but does that mean no one should be allowed to? Don't let one bad apple spoil the bunch, that's exactly what leads to more gun laws and restrictions. I'm very disappointed that some fellow TFL members can't see how close their mindset is to the anti-gun crowd's.
C Philip is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 12:00 AM   #37
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
I'm very disappointed that some fellow TFL members can't see how close their mindset is to the anti-gun crowd's.
My mindset is that The right to keep and bear arms is an individual right subject to restrictions under the following "X" standard of scrutiny...

And in that analysis, a ban on carrying loaded guns at a gunshow, whether imposed by insurance or government would pass with fllying colours. As would bans at sports arenas, bars and suchlike.

Nothing like a nice series of supreme court decisions to help tone screeching down

Wildihaveover350booksonmysonyreaderAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 12:01 PM   #38
C Philip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 784
The Brady campaign advocates "reasonable" or "common sense" restrictions as well, the problem is that everyone's definition of reasonable differs. How do we decide what it truly reasonable, if it's even possible to reach such a consensus?
C Philip is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 01:47 PM   #39
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,628
Quote:
When it comes to gun shops, gun shows, and ranges a lot of gun owners tend to feel less inhibited and often forget the basics of gun safety.

How many times have you been swept with a muzzle at walmart or the grocery store by someone who pulls out their carry piece? Now how about at a gun shop, shooting range, or gun show?
I believe there's still a thread discussing this in the General Discussion forum. The issue has come up before and has been beaten to death.

A shop near me had a guy looking at shotguns. For some reason, he'd brought a 12ga shell with him for "fitting" to the gun. He asked to see one, and when nobody was looking, he dropped the shell in the chamber. According to him, "something happened."

"Something" involved a negligent discharge that took out an entire display case and endangered everyone present. This wasn't their first time. People don't do stuff like that at Linens-R-Us or Bowl-O-Rama. They do at gun shops.

The shop now disallows loaded weapons, except for their regulars. Does this mean they're Brady sellouts and anti-2nd Amendment "bigots?" If it does, they've got me fooled, since two of the employees are active NRA recruiters.

The situation is even more dangerous at gun shows, where you've got hundreds of people milling around unsupervised. As I've pointed out, none of us would do something that stupid. The problem is, we're not the only ones at gun shows. It just takes one yokel to make things very dangerous or tragic for everyone.

If there's a situation that results in injury or death, how long do you think it'll be before the local government comes under pressure to refuse a permit for the venue in the future?

I certainly don't like having to disarm for a gun show, but as with many things in life, those of us who are responsible have to pay for those who are not. That's why every nearly consumer product has a warning label of some sort.

Discretion on the part of a venue owner does not equal a tyrannical attack on the 2nd Amendment. Sheesh.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 02:01 PM   #40
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,843
Can we drop the rhetoric that implies if you want to discuss a restriction based on evidence of risk, you are definitionally antigun?

The exception proofs the rule. Should 5 year olds be able to open carry full auto guns in Kindergarten?

Or is it that suggesting any restriction at all makes you a bad person?

We have restrictions on speech, etc. We've done this before.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old March 8, 2010, 02:04 PM   #41
Wagonman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2008
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 987
I make the same comment I always do in threads of this nature

CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED
Wagonman is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 02:13 PM   #42
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,843
Yes, but some of the signs have the force of law. So advocating ignoring them is probably not a good idea.

Sigh - are we going anywhere with this?

1. It is too bad that liability issues caused such signs to be posted.
2. It is too bad that idiots have reinforced the liability concerns.
3. Is it a bad statement about trusting us?
4. Should the owner go out of business for the righteous to bless him or her?
5. If you think he or she should stay in business, worry about risk, think it is private property and his or her business, worry about risk yourself - are you a big, evil tool of Sarah Brady and the dark forces of evil, a coward, a secret agent of the UN, etc.?

Anything else?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Old March 8, 2010, 02:26 PM   #43
orangello
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
Recently, at the small local gunshow held at the local fairgrounds multipurpose building, a well-trained Deputy with the local Department accidentally shot himself in the toe with a .22 mag rifle that had been purchased for his kid (who had been carrying it around the show for a half hour or more). Apparently neither the seller nor the well-trained LEO checked the chamber to see if the rifle was loaded. I can't believe they didn't even check the rifling and barrel condition. This Deputy was no rookie and had supposedly taught some firearms safety classes at some point; now he is probably called "MR. NO TOE". If it can happen to a trained LEO, much less with a rifle purchased for his child, then who else could make such an error? I always find the shows exciting & very interesting; maybe these factors just distract some people too much.

I am OK with everything being unloaded inside the building & for the duration of the show. IIRC, there are a couple of armed deputies right handy at the door for any emergencies requiring an armed response. Other places outside the gunshow don't usually have a couple of armed LEO's quite so nearby/handy & individuals may find more need of their properly permitted concealed firearms.

I did notice one of the dealers with an open carry, cowboy style revolver at a nearby show, last year. It was a really nice-looking revolver, and honestly, i wondered if the dealer's open carrying might have been more for advertising his wares than for his defense/comfort. This show also had deputies at the door, but i am not 100% on that show's concealed carry rules.
orangello is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 03:25 PM   #44
Tom Servo
Staff
 
Join Date: September 27, 2008
Location: Foothills of the Appalachians
Posts: 10,628
Quote:
CONCEALED MEANS CONCEALED
In this case, that tautology also means violating the wishes of the person owning or renting the property. It can be (and has been) argued that liberty is based on the right to control one's property.

There might be cases in which I must be in a certain place, and that my safety is definitely compromised, where I would see violating the rights of a property holder. But that would have to be a very specific and grave situation, and a gun show doesn't meet that definition.

Whether or not the signs have weight, carrying somewhere against the wishes of the property owner is something of a moral compromise.
__________________
Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change.
--Randall Munroe
Tom Servo is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 03:31 PM   #45
vranasaurus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2008
Posts: 1,175
Quote:
In this case, that tautology also means violating the wishes of the person owning or renting the property. It can be (and has been) argued that liberty is based on the right to control one's property.

There might be cases in which I must be in a certain place, and that my safety is definitely compromised, where I would see violating the rights of a property holder. But that would have to be a very specific and grave situation, and a gun show doesn't meet that definition.

Whether or not the signs have weight, carrying somewhere against the wishes of the property owner is something of a moral compromise.
I couldn't agree more. Not only does it violate the rights of the property owner but too many gun owners forget that their carry piece should stay in it's holster when in public.

I sometimes find it troubling that many gun owners preach about their rights and yet they advocate violating the rights of others.

If you don't agree with the policy don't patronize those establishments as is your right. They have no right to your business but they have the right to control their property and what happens on it.
vranasaurus is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 03:55 PM   #46
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Or is it that suggesting any restriction at all makes you a bad person?
In the eyes of some, yes

WildimmustbeabigotAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 04:19 PM   #47
C Philip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 784
I apologize if I've offended anyone. My only intention was to point out that being scared of the other guy having a gun is similar to what some people in the anti-gun crowd think, and that restrictions that everyone agrees on will be almost impossible to come up with. Both sides of the issue don't want certain people to have guns, and both sides want some kind of restrictions; the line between pro and anti-gun can become blurred.

I said in my first post that I agree the owner of the private property should be able to set the rules. So if we all agree that owners of private property should be able to set the rules, then:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Should 5 year olds be able to open carry full auto guns in Kindergarten?
The answer would be yes, if the owner of the school decides to allow it. The Second Amendment doesn't mention age.
Just playing devil's advocate here guys, I apologize again if my previous posts made it sound like I was accusing anyone of being a bad person.

Edit: I think the real issue here is whether or not the Second Amendment trumps private property.

Last edited by C Philip; March 8, 2010 at 04:25 PM.
C Philip is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 04:23 PM   #48
skydog1979
Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Posts: 32
I don't really want to go to a gun show where I have to be concerned about people in such tight quarters who might be armed. I don't have a problem with it.
skydog1979 is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 04:38 PM   #49
cerberus65
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 30, 2008
Posts: 384
I'll throw my $.02 in. I've seen that same sign (although in a different city). It does not meet the legal definition set forth in SC law. So for legal purposes you can ignore it. However, concealed means concealed as someone else pointed out. If you pull your concealed gun out to check it in a cool holster you see at the show, you probably will get yourself charged with brandishing. So if you decide to take it in concealed, it better stay concealed - no matter what. I'm fine with folks carrying at a gun show as long as their guns stay concealed. If you want to check out holsters, bring your carry piece in a plastic box, already unloaded, and get it zip-tied at the door. One way or the other but no attempts at switching mid-stream. That's where the potential trouble starts.
cerberus65 is offline  
Old March 8, 2010, 04:56 PM   #50
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 15,843
Personally, when it comes to the work place - I believe that the right of self-defense trumps private property if you are open as a business to the public. This is a debate we have had before. However, the 2nd Amend. vs. private property owners is an interesting one and then interacts with all kinds of rights vs. your property. Leads to the protected class arguments.

I only believe in the right of a private property owner or employer to limit the right of reasonable self-defense equipment (no grenades for you), if there is a clear technical danger from the firearm. My test example is not to carry the sidearm by the MRI which can grab them and make them go off!

Now the conflict of property rights, defining gun carriers are protected and the 2nd Amend. is a fun debate - which we've done before.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc.
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...05_Feature.htm
Being an Academic Shooter
http://www.teddytactical.com/archive...11_Feature.htm
Being an Active Shooter
Glenn E. Meyer is online now  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.18800 seconds with 7 queries