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Old March 1, 2010, 05:52 PM   #1
saemetric
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Ithaca M6

Anyone know anything about the M6 O/U 22 Hornet over 410 single shot made by Ithaca back in the early 1950's. It has 14" barrels which puts it into the NFA class. The one I saw had USAF Property stamped into the parkerized finish. It had no trigger guard, an ammo compartment, and folded in half for a very compact weapon.
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Old March 1, 2010, 07:51 PM   #2
UpandAtIt
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They were actually made by three makers. Ithica, Savage and H&R (the differences were the hammer and the sights) basically the same exact weapon. Most were packed into the Aircrew Survival Kit for Bombers. The kits were made by Hudson Bay Company as well as Frass Surgical Mfg (Frass made most of the military survival kits). All of them will have the US Property and ord bomb as well as the service such as US Army Air Corps, Airforce etc.





Packed with it were special Hot/Wet enviroment .410 shotshells with a yellow sleeve that had to be torn off prior to inserting into the chamber and the case head and primer as well as the end were havey lacquered. There were 2 of each #6 shot, Slug and #9 shot shells. There were 8 .22 Hornet shells with the bullet case neck and head fully lacquered, a .22lr adaptor for the .22 hornet chamber and 20 .22lr shells to use in the adaptor that were lacquered where the bullet meets the case.

In the kit, they came in a small cloth/vynal sleeve with a pocket that had a small cleaning kit, instructions for use (what shells to use on what game etc). The sleeve also had a sling that could be taken off and placed onto the survival rifle.

The BATFE considers them to be short barrel rifles/shotguns at 14" and there are registered ones out there for sale. I have seen the registered ones go for about $6000. I have also seen a few unregistered go for about $1000.

The closest you can get to one today is the Springfield M6 Scout in different caliber / gage combos. There were three versions of the springfield. The prig that except for barrel length looked and acted just like the orig aircrew M6, the next were the ones made with the trigger guard and then were made in Eastern Euro and prevented it from being folded all the way, but could be taken aoart with the hinge pin and the pistol version that hand a 1 land and groove in the shot gun barrel to make it legal as a pistol.

All of Springfield M6 Scout are now discontinued and I have seen them go from $350 to $1000 on gunbroker and auctionarms.

There is word that a company called Survival Systems (a sub of Gerber Survival, the knife, shovel and sparker maker) will be making the M6 under their name and will come in a variety of flavors to meet most needs. They will also be making a remake of the Garcia (Rossi) Bronco o/u (even more crude than the M6) in diff cal/ga combos as well as single shot rifles and single shot shotguns.

One addition that Survival Systems is going to make is a O/U .410 made just like the M6.
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Old March 1, 2010, 08:44 PM   #3
David Hineline
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One correction, these guns are classified as AOW and transfer on $5 tax not Short Rifles or Shotguns which transfer on $200 tax.
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Old March 1, 2010, 10:09 PM   #4
UpandAtIt
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They are only class III transferable if registered though, regardless of SBR/SBS or AOW. I do not think you can transfer a AOW that is not already registered. If they can, I will gladly buy the ones I lknow where they are at and register them and then sell em off. They are literally laying in buckets at a base near me, barrel section and stock section seperated and just laying there.

Can these still be form 1'd or ??? and made into legal to own AOW ?

I know where a nice lil stock pile of them are at, but I do not think they can now be grandfathered in. There is one on gun broker right now that was FUBARED and Bubba'd by adding a "Flash Supressor" to the end, they say w/o destroying the weapon, just priced around $400 right now, it is an Ithica.
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Old March 2, 2010, 12:50 AM   #5
David Hineline
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Military weapons do not go into the ATF NFA registry, so those piles of Scout rifles are military property. Unless they were given to Police then they would become AOWs.

The deal with that type of gun or other AOWs is that a firearm receiver like those is a title 1 receiver as it could have longer barrels installed, so as such it is not registered by it's self. This is how the Springfield copies were done with longer barrels. It is the combination of receiver with the barrels that makes it an AOW and there for subject to NFA regulations. So if govment.org wanted to surplus those receivers out they could goto any FFL dealer or police or individual as a title 1 receiver, then at a later time if a set of original barrels was found the gun could then be NFA registered as an AOW, or the barrels could be extended and it would remain a title 1 gun. The problem in regards to those guns is how to get them from military property to civillian, there is the snag why they are so rare. Many property marked guns are lost overseas in some war, then imported into the US and sold as guns, up till post Vietnam soldiers could bring back trophies and were given duty guns as awards, they had capture papers or whatever documents and the ATF would register those, the modern army is not allowed trophies.

So if you could find a gun that did not have it's barrel set, and you registered it as AOW then found an original barrel set later, or cut down a 18" set from Springfield and cut that barrel set down you are good to go. Definatly would not want to register a serial number that was going to come back as stolen US govment property though.

Convince your local LE agency that they need to convince your base that the dept. drastically needs those guns for varmint control, originals would be worth a new M16 at least when the dept. sold them off.
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Old March 2, 2010, 06:16 AM   #6
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I've been thinking VERY hard about filing a F1 on my Czech-made M6, and chopping the barrels to 14". Already removed the trigger guard and put a proper pivot pin with a retaining clip on it.
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Old March 2, 2010, 07:38 AM   #7
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This is gonna make ya cry, these are on a base but in a GoCo (Government Owned Company Operated) warehouse and was sold to the GoCo as JUNK Metal, not as firearms.

The company OWNS these junked out piece parts. 4 buckets of receivers are in one address off the base (different company name) and 5 buckets in another address on the base in the GoCo name.

I have been trying to figure out a legal way to get these to collectors as assembled collectors items, I just do not want to be the test pilot for it LOL. I am sure they are covered also under C&R as they are well over 50 years old and have historical significance.

I can literally get all of these for a song from the company (I work for them). They are listed as part of the company assets and not the gov't assets. Bill of sale as proof. If I had to guess, there is prob 25 - 30 of each and the orig pins are in the bucket with the barrels. They are immersed in 12 gallon buckets with Kano Kroil covering the parts completly. They were not cut, they were just disassembled and ammo removed from the stock (ammo is in a dry sealed bucket with dessicant packs).
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Old March 2, 2010, 08:57 AM   #8
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If they're company property, they can be transferred on F4s. Should be able to, anyway. Even just parting out everything except the receiver would be a goldmine, as M6 parts are nigh impossible to find - I have to make all my own.
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Old March 2, 2010, 01:27 PM   #9
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Let me know if you need some piece parts as there is a large coffee can full of em as spares also soaked in Kano-Kroil. There are hammers, trigger bars, pins, springs, hinge pin, front sight band w/sight and other various small parts..

I kind of want to keep the assemblies complete until we figure something out with them.

All the parts are marked either ITH or HRA. We have the slings, the cloth pouches/carrying bag.... some call it a pack, orig ammo as found in the stock (.22 Hornet FCC *date) (.410 FCC USA *date, yellow body with HUGE printed shot size in black on the sides), The adaptors for the .22lr are marked HR .22H -.22lr. The .22 lr ammo is in a Flat Pack, cardboard sleeve, and says Federal Ammunition - Anoka MN, .22lrrf Standard Velocity - Ball, *date and * Inspected Mark. The sleeve is sealed with a wax like material. The cleaning kits as well as the U.S. Military .410 Flares (white with red stripes on the shell body, flare, signal, Hot.Wet Environment - RED - Foilage Penetrating - 1200 ft ele made by Federal Ammunition in Anoka MN)
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Old March 2, 2010, 03:24 PM   #10
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If you're being serious, PM me with an e-mail address and I will tell you exactly what I'd like to purchase.
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Old March 2, 2010, 05:58 PM   #11
David Hineline
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As an individual the form 1 registration is $200 then later transfers are $5 or you can send it to a NFA manuf. and they can register it and transfer it back to you for $5 transfer.
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Old March 2, 2010, 07:24 PM   #12
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David: that is how I understood the law, that first regestration is $200 as a NFA-GCA68 Form 1, and then if I transfer, the new applicant pays the $5 with the application fee with a form 4. The $200 is usually added on to the sale price of the firearm to the next transferee. I am still confused as to how this is an AOW and not a SBR/SBS. Unless it is because it was orig mfg as a SBR/SBS and no mods are needed to make it into a SBR/SBS. Kind of like the Marbles Game Getter being an AOW. I am honestly torn on if I want to go through all of that or not or just parts them out w/o the receivers. I would love to see these get into collectors hands legally if at all possible.
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Old March 2, 2010, 07:32 PM   #13
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I'd probably see about getting a Class III manufacturer involved. They will be able to take the bucket-O-parts and assemble/register them at no cost, then transfer on a $5 stamp.
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Old March 3, 2010, 01:16 AM   #14
David Hineline
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AOW Any Other Weapon, it can't be a short barreled rifle, cause it has a shotgun barrel too short, it can't be a short barreled shotgun cause it has a short rifle barrel.

Any Other Weapon one of the definitions is a combination gun rifle/shotgun that is manually loaded, with short barrels and may also have a shoulder stock.

A licensed firearms manuf. or guns built on the behalf of a govment agency does not pay a tax to manuf. a NFA firearm. An individual pays a tax to manuf. a NFA firearm. So If a manuf. registers it, there is not tax and a $5 to transfer it out. If the individual does the form 1 it is $200.

So if an individual has a gun that can be manuf. into an AOW they can provided the gun to a licensed manuf. and they can register the gun as AOW and transfer direct back to the original owner for the $5 tax on form 4 even if it is going across state lines without a dealer needed in the original owners state of residence.
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Old March 3, 2010, 10:20 AM   #15
UpandAtIt
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Very interesting. This all just may come together as there are plenty of Class II mfg around me here or I might be able to find one via Knob Creek.

Good posts guys.......

These dead M6's just may become survivors again. What do you think about 90 days for the Class II and then another 90 for me to be approved for the F4?

I currently have 3 Class II pieces, so my approval should n0ot be in question.

Would I do these a few at a time or dole it out over time - one at a time?

We counted this morning - 32 Barrel sets, 28 - 01 Receivers, about 10 each of each lil piece part, 8 pouches with slings, too much ammo to count really well here at work.

We will prob keep the ammo back and let it go with the registered pieces, although I know there was a lot of extra ammo from the survival kits that were taken apart to destroy the drugs and reclaim the gold rings and coins, the gov't destroyed the drugs (morphine, anti-biotics, salves, airline sized alcohol bottles of some kind, pain pills of some kind and a few other pharm type items) in a furnace, the gold was reclaimed by someone from Dept of Treasury.

Everything else was inventoried and a "Bulk Asset Sale" to the company for scrap / surplus goods. All of it just sits here in the tool / inventory lock up. All kinds of cool lil gadgets, knives (the food was burned as well), lights tools etc.

I talked to the President of the company today and he is more than happy to get these "street guns" his words not mine out of company property.

This just may well all come together ..............
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Old March 3, 2010, 02:24 PM   #16
PTK
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You have extra barrel assemblies... remember my PM, man.
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Old March 3, 2010, 07:03 PM   #17
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If you have a Class II manufacturer register them and put them for sale, make sure to send me a PM.

Quote:
I talked to the President of the company today and he is more than happy to get these "street guns" his words not mine out of company property.
Talk about selling a dollar for a penny. Get them out of the warehouse and into an SOTs hands ASAP.
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Old March 12, 2010, 09:20 PM   #18
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i'd be interested to if you have a Class II manufacturer register them, or i'd also be interested in parts for a friend.
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Old March 13, 2010, 01:56 AM   #19
UpandAtIt
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Update on M6 registrations

Ok here is where it stands of right now:

As a test of all of this, 5 Ithica M6 receivers were transfered to a Class II mfg / Class III dealer. He will register each receiver as an AOW for $50 each, plus the $5 AOW. He is doing all the paper work. He will also be the transfer dealer of record to people that want to BUY a registered receiver. For each sale, the dealer will take a % of the sale price. He will find a dealer for you if you do not have one in your area to handle the paperwork and trans.

For those that buy a registered receiver, all the other stuff will be given with them, barrel set, sling, ammo and cleaning kit/oiler.

We are not sure yet what the selling price of the registered receivers will be. We do know it will be low enough to make it worth while, while at the same time high enough not to have someone walk right in behind us and sell them for profit immediately. We want these to get into collectors hands, not into greedy bloodsuckers hands.
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Old March 13, 2010, 05:37 AM   #20
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Any news on what we discussed via PM? Also, I'd love to get my name on a list for one of the registered receivers when the price is set.
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Old March 13, 2010, 10:54 AM   #21
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Try putting one on Gunbroker and see what it sells for. That should give you an indication as to the going price for these.

/Then sell one to me for cheap, I won't sell it.
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Old March 13, 2010, 12:36 PM   #22
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There's a bastardized Title I, one, on GB right now. Looks like they didn't register it and had to put on a pinned flash hider to get to 16"

$1525 with 7 hours left

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=159360100

@UpandAtIt is that your auction? the serial # on the GB pic #8 is the same as the pic you posted.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:10 PM   #23
UpandAtIt
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Ok folks.....

We have 5 of the registered M6's ready for sale and transfer. They will come with the rifle/shotgun, sling, carry pouch, orig military rounds (.410, 22 Hornet and .22lr) (mailed direct to you in seperate package), chamber .22 Hornet conversion shell to shoot .22lr, orig maintenance kit, orig (not copied) use and maintenance booklet, 5 flare.tracer .410 rounds and the history story of how these particular M6's came about. The units and sets are in very good to excellent and orig unfooled with condition.

These will be First Come, First Served, date and time stamp of the emails will determine the rank and status. - 5 are available now and in Sept this year, 10 more will be available.

1. You need to find a transfer dealer in YOUR area, We will only work with another Class III dealer and not direct to you (insurance liabilities requirement from our insurer.)

2. Email (not a PM) me your name, city and state and your transfer dealers name, address, phone and fax number. You must state " I want one of these M6 rifles" in the subject line. My dealer will contact your dealer and start the process and will send a purchase agreement, completed paperwork from our end for our responsabilities. My email is theavengingbeans@aol.com. Complete photos and info will be emaild to you.

3. The funds will be placed in escrow until the deal is sealed and transfer is complete, we keep the interest rate received on the escrow. If your trans fails to complete due to legal or other issues, the $120 trans fee is NOT refundable and there will be a 15% restocking fee before funds are refunded. Payment due within 15 days after purchase agreement is signed and accepted by us. Payments not made will result in that M6 going to the next person on the list, no exceptions, no excuses and no run arounds.

4. Two different bank checks, one for the price of the gun and one for my dealers transfer fee's.

Here is the deal

Price: $1550.00 plus state tax if you are in AZ where my dealer is at and transfer fee of $120, my class III does all the paperwork needed on our end, you get your own Class III, Leo and other needed signatures. You are responsable for your own transfer fee's and completed paperwork to BATFE, your local Leo and any state regulations you must comply with.

Very important... 1/2 of the price will be donated to "The Wounded Warrier Project," IN YOUR Name if so desired. This org does fantastic things for our wounded soldiers and military and their families. The decision to do this is simple, we wanted a high enough price on these M6's so that profit mongers will not buy them and then immediately sell them for twice the price. So we came up with the 50% to WWP.

Any whinning about having to deal between dealers will constitute your request being rejected and the next in line will get that rifle. We are very firm on this.

.....and the race is on.... Good Luck folks.

any questions, PM me and I will reply as soon as possible.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:21 PM   #24
UpandAtIt
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Full Tang Halo, no, that was not my M6, I needed a fast picture for the OPS question. So I hijacked that picture from that listing. That is shameful what they did to that M6 to get it legal.
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Old June 4, 2010, 02:21 AM   #25
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Nuts. Out of my price range.
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