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Old February 27, 2010, 09:15 AM   #1
phattacorider
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Ammo for self defense??

I'm not sure all the different kinds of ammo there is out there, I am only familiar wit FMJ and hollow points. But which kinds are legal for self defense? I've read places where hollow points are against the law to even have, yet I live in Nevada and one of the CCW course instructors at a local gun shop says they are mandatory to us in self defense. I'll be taking my CCW course ere in about 2 and a half hours but what do other regions say? Is there a federal law mandating only a certain kind of ammo be use in self defense? Or is that determined at the discretion of the state?
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Old February 27, 2010, 09:32 AM   #2
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Other than NJ, I don't know of any other state where hollowpoints are problematic. No state mandates hollowpoints for self defense.
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Old February 27, 2010, 09:36 AM   #3
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No federal law. Some states ban citizen use and possession of HP ammo, but I seriously doubt NV is one of them. Essentially if it's available at a gunshop or sporting goods store it's legal.

I'm also a little skeptical of the statement that HP ammo is mandatory for SD as it could cause problems in the event you had to press a hunting revolver loaded with hard cast bullets into SD or you were in a training/practice session with ball ammo and found yourself in an SD situation.

Are premium HP defense loads advisable? You bet. My suggestion is find out what your local cops carry as a duty load and go with that if it functions reliably in your gun.

If you are taking a CHL course most of your questions will be answered by certified instructors who are up on NV law.
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Old February 27, 2010, 09:50 AM   #4
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I purchased two boxes of HP from the dealer. They told me the ammo they sold me is what the LVMPD, NHP, and Boulder City PD are all using. Winchester Ranger 127gr 9mm HP +P+, whatever +P+ is...According to the box, this ammo isn't for retail sale and is intended for law enforcement use only. But the gun store said they are recieving a different knd of ammo for LE use. They also said because of penetration issues, HP is the only ammo allowed for self defense. I would think there's some false info there since you could have FMJ loaded at any moment and need to excercise SD.
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Old February 27, 2010, 11:44 AM   #5
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+P+ means higher pressure, which of course give the bullet a higher velocity. As long as your gun is rated for it, fine, and some would even say preferable.

127 grain is the bullet weight. That is mid-sized for 9 mm. Light 9s are 115 grain, with the heaviest up around 148 grain. Again, some folks argue for the lighter round because it is moving a bit faster, others for the heavier bullet due to greater penetration, and a fair number of folks (like you and me) who can't decide and choose to split the difference

Like some others have said, I have never heard of a law mandating JHP use for self defense. Check it out with legal authorities to be sure, but that may be hooey.
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Old February 27, 2010, 08:52 PM   #6
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I've been told you are at greater risk of prosecution if you use FMJ in a justified SD shooting. The advice giver was not a qualified expert.

IMHO, anything you can legally buy should be safe for SD use. Otherwise people who used their rifle instead of their handgun for SD would be getting prosecuted for excessive force, etc.

Any legal experts or people with first hand experience?

Last edited by podrav; February 27, 2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Old February 27, 2010, 11:30 PM   #7
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Well, according to the CCW course instructor, he said in the state of Nevada, you can only use HOLLOW POINTS for self sefense. The DA's office will not allow for the use of FMJs because of over-penetration. I sent Stoeger an email about my Cougar 8000F 9mm if it will accept the +P+ and I haven't recieved anything yet, but a guy in the class is an Air Force tactical instructor (renewing his permit) and he told me that the Cougar should be fine handling the +P+. He said most major brand names like Beretta, H&K, S&W, CZ, SIG, and others are tested with the highest power rounds to see if they can withstand the rounds. All I know is the only gun in my posession is my 8000F. If I come face to face with a life threatening situation, I will use the round in my gun until th threat is gone.
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Old February 27, 2010, 11:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Well, according to the CCW course instructor, he said in the state of Nevada, you can only use HOLLOW POINTS for self sefense. The DA's office will not allow for the use of FMJs because of over-penetration.
Please understand that I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT NEVADA LAW, but the DA doesn't make law. Perhaps the DA just has a personal opinion and the instructor knows this. Some DAs may believe hollow points are "man killers" and evidence of evil intent. So, you might want to get some more information.
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Old February 28, 2010, 02:41 AM   #9
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Well, according to the CCW course instructor, he said in the state of Nevada, you can only use HOLLOW POINTS for self sefense. The DA's office will not allow for the use of FMJs because of over-penetration.
You need to have your ccw instructor cite to you the specific law mandating use of hollowpoints for defense. Otherwise, you should not take his word for it.

Quote:
Please understand that I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT NEVADA LAW, but the DA doesn't make law. Perhaps the DA just has a personal opinion and the instructor knows this. Some DAs may believe hollow points are "man killers" and evidence of evil intent. So, you might want to get some more information.
Right, the DA's office does not make the law and doesn't have the power to disallow you from carrying or using FMJ for defense.
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Old February 28, 2010, 04:01 AM   #10
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Yeah, most likely it's a policy to not use FMJ. I browsed through NV's firearms statutes and didn't see anything on hollow points only, etc.

But I didn't read real closely.
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Old February 28, 2010, 04:35 AM   #11
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Well, according to the CCW course instructor, he said in the state of Nevada, you can only use HOLLOW POINTS for self sefense
Incorrect, there is no such law, rule or ordinance in Nevada. Hollow points are advisable for SD because they expand and are therefore less likely to over penetrate or pass through walls and hurt innocent bystanders.
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Old February 28, 2010, 04:52 AM   #12
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Forgive my lack of elaboration...

Eh sorry guys I should have been more clear in how I stated it all. The DA's office does not condone the use of FMJ for self defense. While it's understood that standpoint is not determined to be the basis of law (which makes it a totally irrelevant statement), it is a law according to the state of Nevada that only HP ammo can be used for SD. I'll get a hold of my instructor just to make extra certain again for the 5th time, lol, as it does strike disbelief in my mind such a law exists. But, check these out...

Boulder City prohibits ANY firearm be transfered loaded within 1,000ft of a building. It's a city law, and also applies to anyone with a state recognized CCW. While the federal and state governments are fighting Boulder City, the city does have the right to mandate and maintain it's own laws. So if you care caught traveling through Boulder City with your gun totally concealed and your CCW permit on you, you're breaking their law and will be punished as such unless you have a good attorney who can take it to state or federal.

We were told of a Nevada resident who was in California, had his BB gun in the back yard of his family's house, and was reported by a neighbor. He was arrested on a FELONY CHARGE of having an illegal item and was not only stripped of his Nevada CCW, but his guns as well in Nevada.

In New Jersey and New York it is against their laws to fire at human silhouette targets. It is also against the law to fire at black targets, claiming it is "racist".

I live in North Las Vegas, Nevada. It is within the entire metropolitan area of Las Vegas, with Boulder City a few miles outside of Henderson, which is also a part of the Las Vegas metropolitan area. In Las Vegas, you can carry a loaded handgun in the glove box in your car or truck without a CCW except through the North Las Vegas area and Boulder City.

Those are just a couple of wacky examples of weird things that are law in Southern Nevada just to make the possibility of mandated HP for SD seem a little more plausible at this point (and wacky laws elsewhere to prove the existence of wacky laws). I'll ask my instructor about it, and I'll ask him where he got his information from so I can relay it. The store is closed Sunday so I'll find out for sure on Monday.
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Old February 28, 2010, 09:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
I purchased two boxes of HP from the dealer. They told me the ammo they sold me is what the LVMPD, NHP, and Boulder City PD are all using. Winchester Ranger 127gr 9mm HP +P+, whatever +P+ is...According to the box, this ammo isn't for retail sale and is intended for law enforcement use only. But the gun store said they are recieving a different knd of ammo for LE use. They also said because of penetration issues, HP is the only ammo allowed for self defense.
So were instructor and dealer affiliated in any way? It sounds to me like a scam to get you to buy more expensive ammo.

FYI, the "law enforcement use only" label is NOTHING more than marketing with the possible exception of it for sale in NJ and then the notion would apply to all hollowpoint amo.

Quote:
In New Jersey and New York it is against their laws to fire at human silhouette targets. It is also against the law to fire at black targets, claiming it is "racist".
You are going to have to get the specific laws on this as well. Your people seem to be the only ones who know about apparently obscure laws.

Quote:
We were told of a Nevada resident who was in California, had his BB gun in the back yard of his family's house, and was reported by a neighbor. He was arrested on a FELONY CHARGE of having an illegal item and was not only stripped of his Nevada CCW, but his guns as well in Nevada.
Well, several states will revoke your carry permit if you have a felony arrest, so that is nothing new. What the little story doesn't say is if the felony arrest was actually for the BB gun or something else. People often confuse the cause and effect issues. You can find posts here and on other gun forums where it is claimed that people are arrested for things like "self defense" and upon actually reading the story you find out that the arrest happened because the self defense incident brought to the attention of the cops that the arrestee had some form of contraband such as an illegally short shotgun that was used in self defense. So the BB gun might have been reported by the neighbor, but chances are the arrest was for something else all together and not simple possession of a legal BB gun.
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Old February 28, 2010, 10:01 AM   #14
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I only carry HPs in my daily carry gun, too much of a risk for over penetration with FMJ (at least when carrying a larger caliber).

I'm not a lawyer and am not informed enough to comment on state laws beyond those of my own state. In general I'd rather use HP than FMJ for SD
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Old February 28, 2010, 04:46 PM   #15
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Have you contacted the DA's office, the police, or a lawyer? Those are the people I would be more inclined to ask.

As far as I know, there are no federal laws requiring hollowpoints for self-defense. The only federal law regarding types of self-defense ammo that I'm aware of is a ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition. Local laws, on the other hand, may vary. For example, New Jersey has very stringent restrictions on the use of hollowpoint ammunition, Indiana bans FMJ ammo for hunting, and the NYPD was required to use FMJ ammo until fairly recently.

That being said, I can't really think of any good reason not to use JHP ammo for self-defense in you Cougar. The only circumstances that I reccomend the use of FMJ ammo are with small calibers like .22 Long Rifle, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP whose hollowpoint loadings don't reliably penetrate adequately, when local laws ban JHP, in a caliber that JHP ammo is not commonly available, or with a handgun that will not function reliably with JHP's.
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Old February 28, 2010, 11:24 PM   #16
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Double Night Spy, the California arrest was a felony charge for having the BB gun in his posession. I only stated those examples of obscure laws because Nevada law states you can only use HP ammo for self defense, which is the basis of my post. I understand that is not a federal law, but states are allowed to make and mandate their own laws even if they are as rediculous as no loaded guns within 1000ft of a building in Bouler City, Nevada, no human silhouettes or black targets in Ne Jersey or New York, and felony charge of being in posession of a BB gun in California, which is why I am informing everyone that according to my CCW course instructor (who happens to work at this gun store that I purchased my +P+ HP ammo from) Nevada law will only allw the use of hollow point ammo for self defense use.

And Webleymkv, I haven't contcted the PD, DA, or a lawyer to reference my learning. I will certainly do so when I take my paperwork to the PD for my permit just to see what they say. Then again, a lot of police officers don't even know that you don't have to carry your blue card with your gun anymore, at least in Nevada.
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Old February 28, 2010, 11:59 PM   #17
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It boggles the mind

Quote:
I've been told you are at greater risk of prosecution if you use FMJ in a justified SD shooting.
And a law that requires the use of hollowpoints? OR what? Prosecution?

Somehow, I can't see any state doing that. States with long histories of firearms restrictions (like NJ) ban civilian carry of hollowpoints, but I know of no state that requires their use.

The poster has said repeatedly that it is a NV law, would you be so kind as to cite the law #?

Seems to me, that a law prohibiting use of the same ammo that the US military uses wouldn't get passed. As others have recommended, use what your police use. Well, how could using what the ARMY uses be against the law? And yes, I understand how hunting regs can prohibit FMJ, but for self defense? I have to say BS, until/unless someone can cite a specific law.

Would the NV law also prohibit soft points? There are other kinds of expanding bullets besides hollowpoints, you know. There are even situations where soft points will expand when hollow points will not.

I admit no personal awareness of NV law, but it seems to me that whoever is telling you the law says you must use hollowpoints is feeding you a line. Either they have an agenda, or.....
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Old March 1, 2010, 02:39 AM   #18
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The person telling me told a class of 12 of us inour CCW course. He is certified to train for concealed carry and police tactics, and works at the gun store that he teaches as well. I will try to find out from him tomorrow or Tuesday what the NRS number is for this, as it seems perplexing to me yet maks sense. But as *funky* as this "law" would be, it wouldn't be the funkiest law I've ever heard of.

He has also told us that blue cards aren't required to have on your person when you have your piece on you as well. This was verified by an individual in class who told us he was pulled over 3 weeks ago and had his firearm removed and confiscated for not having his reg. card on him as well. He talked to a lawyer about the charge and now he has a mile of red tape to cross to get his gun back, but the chrges are going to be dropped.

Again, I will find out whatever I can. I'll see if I can get an NRS # on the matter just to verify. I will also find out from the police department and CCW detail about this.
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Old March 1, 2010, 12:02 PM   #19
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FWIW, I took a Nevada CCW class last July in Washoe County from Next Generation Training Solutions . The instructors were two Washoe County Sheriff deputies who are also POST and FBI certified firearm instructors. They didn't say anything about Nevada law requiring the use of HP ammunition for self defense (and I checked my notes and the material they provided).

I do prefer JHP ammunition for self defense for a number of reasons. It's most likely to be the most effect. And it does reduce the risks of collateral damage from over-penetration or ricochet, and thus reduces any legal risks that may flow from collateral damage.
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Old March 1, 2010, 03:17 PM   #20
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Quote:
Double Night Spy, the California arrest was a felony charge for having the BB gun in his posession. I only stated those examples of obscure laws because Nevada law states you can only use HP ammo for self defense, which is the basis of my post. I understand that is not a federal law, but states are allowed to make and mandate their own laws even if they are as rediculous as no loaded guns within 1000ft of a building in Bouler City, Nevada, no human silhouettes or black targets in Ne Jersey or New York, and felony charge of being in posession of a BB gun in California, which is why I am informing everyone that according to my CCW course instructor (who happens to work at this gun store that I purchased my +P+ HP ammo from) Nevada law will only allw the use of hollow point ammo for self defense use.
It is nice to be helpful, but you should try to verify some of the stuff you are passing on. I have now spoken with two folks in NV with permits and they have never heard of the hollowpoint only law. I still can't find any laws again silhouettes or black targets as claimed either. I also can't find anything on felony possession of BB guns in California per se.

SB1828 noted being a misdemeanor for open display in a public place for an imitation firearm including a BB gun and CPC 417.4 makes it a misdemeanor to point a BB gun at another person.

Your instructor seems to have passed on a lot of bizarre information that isn't factual.
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Old March 1, 2010, 04:59 PM   #21
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It is obvious that if I delete a post because of content, you don't re-post. You also don't divert the thread to this old debate when I mentioned the search function.

PM sent.
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Old March 3, 2010, 04:01 AM   #22
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Okay guys I went to the gun store, the instructor wasn't there and it was his two days off. I decided to ask one of the other guys behind the counter about this "law" and he said it's not a law. I apologize greatly for everyone. I was told one thing and that wasn't really it. However, the guy behind the counter (I forgot his name) told me it's told as a scare to people who aren't fluent with the politics behind firearms not as a means to sell expensive JHP to them, but to ensure that newbies (like me and many others) who decide to engage in the use of a firearm in SD don't make the mistake of using FMJ's and incidentally wound or kill someone else, which can result in a HUGE prosecution by the DA and families of the innocent that will leave me with my clothes on the street after lots of time in prison. As for the other things I mentioned, they were topics discussed by the instructor and an Air Force Tactics Training Officer who came here from New York. Again everyone, I apologize for the crazy topic. As bizarre as the idea of limiting the type of ammo you can use in self defense is, I guess with other policies and laws out there just as bizarre, it really wouldn't surprise me too much.
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Old March 3, 2010, 08:23 AM   #23
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phattacorider -

A pretty good site with state CCW laws is www.handgunlaw.us It's a good resource and should answer a lot questions for you.
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Old March 3, 2010, 08:33 AM   #24
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Quote:
Okay guys I went to the gun store, the instructor wasn't there and it was his two days off. I decided to ask one of the other guys behind the counter about this "law" and he said it's not a law. I apologize greatly for everyone. I was told one thing and that wasn't really it. However, the guy behind the counter (I forgot his name) told me it's told as a scare to people who aren't fluent with the politics behind firearms not as a means to sell expensive JHP to them, but to ensure that newbies (like me and many others) who decide to engage in the use of a firearm in SD don't make the mistake of using FMJ's and incidentally wound or kill someone else, which can result in a HUGE prosecution by the DA and families of the innocent that will leave me with my clothes on the street after lots of time in prison.
So basically the guy 'fessed up about the lie and then claimed it wasn't for profit to to protect you from yourself?

Smart money would have you never doing business with those folks again. It certainly is not ethical to lie to you, even if it is supposedly for your own good. I would not be in a hurry to believe the cover story for why they lied to you either.

I think that if you do some research, you will find that overpenetration from handgun fmj is very rare and that "incidentally" wounding or killing someone else is instead most often due to missing the intended target.
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Old March 3, 2010, 11:53 AM   #25
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^^^

Quote:
that "incidentally" wounding or killing someone else is instead most often due to missing the intended target.
Had to repeat that for emphasis on the risk we all would take.

Very glad TFL members as a whole strive for integrity in the information shared, I enjoy learning from you.
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