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Old September 8, 2004, 11:15 AM   #26
Pappy John
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I'm currently carrying the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Balls in my Kimber. Yeah, yeah, I know....I'm just a sucker for a marketing shtick. Feeds well though and the idea looks good on paper. Hopefully, I'll never have to find out how their terminal performance really works.

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Old September 12, 2004, 07:18 PM   #27
glock.40cal
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i like the 230grn jhp golden sabers
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Old September 14, 2004, 05:20 PM   #28
Darkangel
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I just saw an article, on another gun site, comparing the different HPs.
It seems to me that the Hydra Shoks are real speed sensitative. About one third did not even open up even when good velocities were reached.
The gold sabers, gold dot, corbons looked great. This is about the third time I've seen evidence that the Hydra-Shoks failed to do what they were supposed to do. The Salem Oregon PD is changing from Hydra Shok to ??, because they failed to open up even after going through a perp, three sides of dry wall and a stud.
I used to be a real Hydra-Shok man but I'm thinking Corbons, or Gold Sabers from now on.
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Old September 14, 2004, 05:32 PM   #29
bearkiller
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Call me old fashioned

I like hard ball in my 1911, even though it will feed HP's. Either way, that .45 caliber hole is given, expansion or not.
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Old September 14, 2004, 06:50 PM   #30
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yup...

200gr XTP...@ 950-1000
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Old September 14, 2004, 06:52 PM   #31
trapshooter
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After a ton of thought, research, blah, blah, blah.... I'm going with a 200 grain hollowpoint at +P+ velocities. It's a compromise, I know. I understand the arguments for 230 grain bullets, whether hardball or hollowpoint. Can't say that I disagree, but I have staked out what I see as the middle ground. 200 grain bullets give decent energy retention at 50+ yards, and will expand reliably if driven fairly fast. I use an overstrength spring to compensate for the slide velocity on recoil, etc., etc.

Silvertips, Hornady XTP's, or Gold Dots. Kind of a toss up between the XTP's and the Silvertips. YMMV. I wouldn't not carry the heavier stuff, but I'm not impressed by the lightweight bullets under 200gr.
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Old September 15, 2004, 10:15 AM   #32
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I gave up 230 gr Hydra Shocks for 200 gr +P Gold Dots. Practice ammo used to be cheap 230 gr FMJ, I have just ordered 200 gr LSWC.
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Old November 10, 2004, 10:14 PM   #33
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Jacketed hollowpoints are a fairly recent phenomenon. Even though they are promoted highly as personal defense ammo they have their drawbacks (failures to feed and penetrate). As a counterpoint, look back on the 500 year history of firearms and the work that solid projectiles have performed, and then review the military history and dependability of 45 FMJ for the past 100 years. When considering the lethal history of 45 ammo in the past century, it would not surprise me if jacketed hollowpoints have accounted for only a small fraction of 1%.

Last edited by Wadoo; November 11, 2004 at 08:46 AM.
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Old November 11, 2004, 12:56 AM   #34
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For targets/bowling pins/ yada, yada I load 230 gr. West Coast brand plated RN.

I don't have a .45 I'd carry, but if I did I'd likely refer to this site for a little scientific guidance:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm

For the most part, most .45 HPs are going to be fairly effective, so even just buying the premium name-brand load that's on sale would probably be safe enough. It isn't like trying to find the perfect .380 load. All the ammo makers try very hard to offer rounds just as good as the next guy's. But it does need to be some sort of expanding ammo.
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Old November 11, 2004, 01:29 PM   #35
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CBC (Magtech) makes a real HOT +P load: 185gr. HP, at 1150fps in my S&W645.

I like the 230gr. Hydra Shock, too.

Handloads:
1) 200gr. Nylon coated HP, 6.2gr. Win 231
2) 220gr. Lead SWC, 6.0gr. Win 231

Regards,

Andre Tiba - Brazil
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Old November 11, 2004, 03:05 PM   #36
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Cost factor?

Folks useing some of the exotic ammo I have seen listed-how much did it cost you to run enought ammo thru the gun to confirm load reliability, like maybe 200 rds? Whatever the drawbacks of useing ball, like some do, I expect that the jam factor is lots less with good ammo.(I had seen misfires and problems with the Russian steel stuff). I used to load the so called "Air Force" bullets that were a FMJ with a coned nose and a flat tip. Think it was Hornady bullets. Supposedly had more target terminal shock than a round nose bullet, but was originally a 9MM bullet design?
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Old November 11, 2004, 08:01 PM   #37
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Shoot your chosen round into a half gallon orange juice carton filled completely with water. Back the target with a long box (approx 24x8x8") packed full of pillow stuffing, preferably before shooting the OJ carton . If the bullet measures around 0.65"-0.70", you have a 'winner'. All JHPs that expand within this range will penetrate 12" in calibrated ballistic gelatin. More expansion gives less penetration and less expansion gives more penetration. Good luck... Tom
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Old November 12, 2004, 05:53 AM   #38
Rob96
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I use 230gr Remington Golden Sabers, 230gr Hydrashoks or 230 gr Winchester JHP.
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Old November 12, 2004, 12:21 PM   #39
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Handloads using Sierra Power Jacket JHP's are totally reliable in my gun for SD...

Target? 230 gr. RNL's over 5.5 gr. Unique...
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Old November 12, 2004, 01:52 PM   #40
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My Series 70 Combat Commander just LOVES the PMC-El Dorado Starfire JHP. Over 300 rounds of them through the gun w/o a single hiccup.

Recovered specimens from pumpkins and wet phonebooks are pretty impressive.

The 200-grain JHP by Speer handloads are also used, and work very well. Expansion from that monster is just incredible to behold.
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Old November 13, 2004, 01:31 AM   #41
vetts1911
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the best ever

250 lead round nose 45 acp pops like a cap gun gun, hits like a bull. Load data lee load manual.
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Old November 13, 2004, 08:40 AM   #42
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Geoff Timm where do you find those things? I thought they were made by CCI.

I'm partial to the Hydra-Shok myself. I'll use anything I also like the Gold Dots.

My carry 45 likes the Hydra-shok too. it seems to be a unanimous decision in this pairing (the gun and me).

Gold dots throw a flyer every now and then in my carry gun. Go figure (shrug)
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Old November 13, 2004, 05:22 PM   #43
Popcorn Coolie
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Winchester doesn't like it when people refer to their SXT as Black Talon, because they're trying to burry the bull**** that was caused by the name BLACK TALON.

All Winchester Did was change the bullet from a teflon coated bullet r teflon coated copper jacket to a plain copper jacket and then they changed the casing from silver to brass. Then call it Ranger SXT instead of Black Talon.

RA45T is a great cartridge, but your talkin .45. Anything that's a bullet is good enough. As long as it makes em bleed.

Again your talkin a pistol. It's not the greatest weapon for defense. If you want a weapon for self defense get your self a pump chump. Load that mother up with 4buck, double 00buck or SABOTs. Well maybe not SABOTs. The penetration is too high to be using on humans in close quaters. Just get yourself some standard rifles slugs.
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Old November 13, 2004, 06:29 PM   #44
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Quote:
Their original KTW bullet centered around a case-hardened steel core. Even at standard velocities, this core would obviously hold its shape and drill through automobiles, cinder blocks and other materials likely to defeat conventional police handgun loads. This was literally the core of the solution, but presented difficulties. The hard core would not take rifling and would ruin the bore. A gliding-metal jacket with full teflon coating took care of this. The round gave good penetration but poor accuracy at long range.
Quote:
The claim was made by the media that the teflon also lubricated the point of impact and increased penetration dramatically. That claim, in reference to soft body armor, was convincingly refuted by government test, with the Justice Dept. saying it "has little or no effect on the penetrating qualities of the projectile" and the Treasury Dept. labeling it as "little more than a cosmetic additive." But the fact that Teflon protects the bore from the ill effects of the hard bullet core is incontrovertible. By end of 1981, KTW was offering its products in most handgun calibers. Sales were still limited to police agencies or police officers ordering through federally licensed dealers, and were still limited in volume.
Quote:
Winchester designed the Ranger Talon with what they call a "reverse-taper" copper jacket. What this means is that the copper jacket on the Ranger Talon is thicker at the tip than at its base, and this is the opposite of conventional hollowpoint bullet designs. This thickness is necessary to provide stiffness to the talons after expansion so they remain in ideal position to cut tissue that flows around the mushroom skirt.
I am not sure but I think you have 2 different bullets put into the black talon category. The original theory that black talons were armor piercing, or "cop killers comes from the fact that they had a black tip on the bullet. In the military this represents an ap round, and some reporter heard this and assumed it meant the same thing in the civilian sector. Anybody who knows more can post better details, but I think this is the basics of the myth.

Quote:
This additional cutting mechanism gives Ranger Talon the potential to be approximately 3% to 5% more effective than other expanding bullets of the same caliber. In one out of every 20-30 shootings, Ranger Talon might make a difference. This very slight advantage could be just enough to save the life of a police officer who has to shoot a psychotic, enraged or chemically intoxicated attacker who is oblivious to being shot
Since they are marketed at law enforcement they should probably be called "cop savers". Can they be bought in most states by civilians who walk into a gun store, or is it like MI that they must be bought at a store that sells equipment and guns to leo's only, and can give a discount. That does not mean leo's must buy from them if they don't stock what they want, but a G27 that retails for $520 can be had at $380 from one of these stores.
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Old November 13, 2004, 08:13 PM   #45
Tamara
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Popcorn Coolie,

Quote:
Winchester doesn't like it when people refer to their SXT as Black Talon, because they're trying to burry the bull**** that was caused by the name BLACK TALON.
They'd more likely get confused, since the Talon and the commercial SXT ar two very different projectiles.

Quote:
All Winchester Did was change the bullet from a teflon coated bullet r teflon coated copper jacket to a plain copper jacket and then they changed the casing from silver to brass. Then call it Ranger SXT instead of Black Talon.
The Black Talon was coated with a proprietary moly-type compound, not teflon. Both the old Talons and the new commercial SXT's use nickel-plated cases. The main differences are that the SXT's use eight-petal jackets instead of the six-petal ones of the Talon, and lack the sharp tips at the end of the jacket petals. Other than that, they're largely the same deep-sump JHP's with a reverse-taper jacket.

Quote:
RA45T is a great cartridge, but your talkin .45. Anything that's a bullet is good enough. As long as it makes em bleed.


Quote:
Again your talkin a pistol. It's not the greatest weapon for defense. If you want a weapon for self defense get your self a pump chump. Load that mother up with 4buck, double 00buck or SABOTs. Well maybe not SABOTs. The penetration is too high to be using on humans in close quaters. Just get yourself some standard rifles slugs.
Why would you use rifled slugs in a rifled-bore shotgun? Why would you use sabots in a smoothbore? Have you ever patterned a shotgun with slugs before?
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Old November 13, 2004, 08:55 PM   #46
Popcorn Coolie
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Why not shoot rifles slugs out of a smooth bored barrel? If your going to be point blank or fifteen feet away it doesn't matter. In that situation you don't want the range you want the punch of the sabot or rifles slug.

Just get a slug bbl with the gun. Most shottys come with slug bbls, because you can fire buck through it with no problem.
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Old November 13, 2004, 09:47 PM   #47
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I like the performence of the XTP rounds. I've never fired them out of a pistol but I have out of a muzzel loader and I like the way they open up. I think I'll have my gundealer order some in and see if he'll give me a free box. I'm not impressed with HydraShok or GoldDot though they are proven performers!

Last edited by willjr; November 14, 2004 at 08:00 AM.
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Old November 14, 2004, 12:13 AM   #48
Popcorn Coolie
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You never know how resillant someone is until you try to kill that person. Some people go down and die when hit with a a spitball .22LR and others will withstand a few 230 grain .45 hollowpoints before dying. You never know how much a male target can withstand. Some can and have taken some serious abuse before dying. Without drugs.

Personaly my favorite is .44 Magnum. Second .357 Magnum. Third .357 Sig.
.44 Magnum shoots better and does more damage. It's balanced perfectly between size, weight and velocity. It's also much easier to shoot than .45 Automatic in my opinion. I mean the Revolver cartridge. I don't know how well the Automatic .44 Magnum performs. I never fired a .44 Magnum ACP. Such as the Desert Eagle.

.45 Auto is great for takedown no matter what type it is. It gets stuck in the body because it's so big and then it's low velocity causes it to drag it's way through the body causing the victim to get jared and jerked around or thrown to the ground. But .44 Magnum will tear a huge chunk out of the individual. Shoot someone with a .45 auto in the arm and they'll get thrown 180 degress, but shoot someone in the arm with a .44 Magnum and that person will be lucky if their arm doesn't get torn off. The bone is just shattered.

Everyone nitpicks. If it puts a hole in person and makes that person bleed it's good. Use a hollow point unless you need as much penetration possible. Preferably a hollow point with a jacket that folds out into a fan blade upon impact. Shoot your target until it hits the ground. If body shots aren't effecting your target then blow his or her throat out.

Doesn't matter. It could be a 9mm of any grainage or jacket and it's still a perfect defensive pistol. Problem is people are trained to shoot for the body instead of shooting for an area that will incapacitate or kill. Such as the throat, head, heart and lungs. Most people don't die instantly when shot in the body. Not like TV makes it seem. So that's why you need to pop them somewhere that will distract or neutralize them until they Go into shock bleed out and die. Person can't function if they can't think or breath. That's why you you hit the heart,lungs head and or throat.

That's why the nine is nice. It's easy to shoot. Put your sights right on the throat and TAK TAK TAK.

Only takes one .357 Magnum and the throat will be gone. Most of it anyway.
That's why I don't understand why people go with .45 Auto for defense when .357 and .44 Magnum are much more powerful and waaaay easier to shoot with a better recovery. Must be over penetration issues. That's the only thing I can think of.

The Best stuff in .45 AUTO that I have seen aside from Rangers SXT is Winchester's Super X X45AHP or something like that. It's Winchester's second best to their Ranger ammunition. It's also a silvertip which is safer to shoot in close quaters.
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Old November 14, 2004, 06:50 AM   #49
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Popcorn Coolie,

It's good to be enthusiastic about firearms when you're young. It's good to find more experienced folks who can help you learn about this fascinating hobby. It's bad if one alienates those folks by puffing up one's self and making claims that are painfully untrue to even the most casual observer, for then they start ignoring you, rather than helping you.

Quote:
Personaly my favorite is .44 Magnum. Second .357 Magnum. Third .357 Sig.
.44 Magnum shoots better and does more damage. It's balanced perfectly between size, weight and velocity. It's also much easier to shoot than .45 Automatic in my opinion. I mean the Revolver cartridge. I don't know how well the Automatic .44 Magnum performs. I never fired a .44 Magnum ACP. Such as the Desert Eagle.
Have you really fired a .44 Magnum and a .45 ACP? I'm inclined to doubt it, since if you had, you would know that .44 Magnum is a hard-recoiling caliber that is much more difficult to control in rapid fire than the comparatively gentle .45 ACP. (Also, note that the Desert Eagle shoots the same .44 Magnum round as a .44 Mag revolver.)

The rest of your post... Jeez. Where to start? If you would like some actual advice on combat shooting from guys who have Been There and Done That, read through the board some; Erick Gelhaus, Jeff Gonzales, Pat Rogers, Firearms Academy (that's Marty Hayes), and several other recognizable names post here.
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Old November 14, 2004, 09:57 AM   #50
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I think Popcorn Coolie needs to get out and shoot some guns chambered for the rounds he mentioned.
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