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Old February 8, 2010, 01:59 AM   #1
Glocker89
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Bird or buck for HD in a appartment?

I live in a appartment with only one person next to me. I live on the end. My wife is the only person in the appartment with me. I am not worried about hitting her. Just the lady next door. They walls seem to be pretty thin.. I have my gun loaded 3 bird 2buck.
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:11 AM   #2
mxsailor803
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mine is set up with 2 bird and 3 buck. i also have your same delimma and i feel sure that the bird will be enough to stop a grown man comming from a 12ga 2 3/4" remington 1100. if not, well, thats y there is 3 00 buck as backup lol
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:20 AM   #3
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Yeah that's what I figure. I am SURE if someone shot me with birdshot at 5-10 feet I would drop to the ground and if I was still alive I would deff not get back up to try to do anything again. Lol
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Old February 8, 2010, 09:14 AM   #4
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This topic goes around a lot, with passionate stances all around. Any minute now, someone will be along to say that 00B is the only answer for every tactical question with a shotgun and that by even considering anything else, you are a fool that is signing their own death warrant.

My opinion is that every tactical situation is different and that each individual person has to evaluate their needs, tools, and limitations to best accomplish their goal. 00B is doubtlessly the most effective short range anti-personnel round whereas light bird/target loads also doubtlessly lack effectiveness. But there’s a couple of realistic options in-between. I for one, am very concerned with penetration through more than one wall (both sides) so I use heavy BB shot loads in the magazine for any engagement at in home distances. However, I also have 00B and slugs standing by on the sidesaddle for task specific requirements. Is that a trade off? Yes. But, so is everything.
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Old February 8, 2010, 09:20 AM   #5
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Oh God, here we go again!

There are many closed threads on this very topic, usually ending with offers to put the money where the mouth is and take a load of #6 in the chest if you think that birdshot won't do the trick.

I'll bring the popcorn, you bring the beer.
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Old February 8, 2010, 09:56 AM   #6
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True, a can of stinky worms has been opened again ...

But in this case the OP has it right. He's worried about overpenetration that can risk his neighbor's life. That's the problem with living in an apartment. And I agree that birdshot at room distance is more than enough to get the job done.

I'd rather have a guy like the OP living next to me than some brain dead zombie killer loaded up with slugs.
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Old February 8, 2010, 10:02 AM   #7
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Buckshot. If overpenetration is that big of a concern then experiment with smaller buckshot.
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Old February 8, 2010, 10:41 AM   #8
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I got hit with barkshot last weekend... Yes I said barkshot and no I didn't mean to say buckshot. I decided to go visit my folks and popped into my fathers shop and from the corner of his old eyes, while turning a 8" round log into a bowl with the lathe he jumped a little and I got result of his slip by way the bark stripping off the wood and hitting me at 1,400 feet per second. Moral of the story is; You could hit a target with gummy worms at 1,400+ feet per second and it would probably make them turn tail and run, and you father won't give a damn if you're hurt if you just ruined his latest project
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Old February 8, 2010, 11:06 AM   #9
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finally decided....

also live in 1 br apartment.

with one neighbor along the kitchen/bath wall.

I keep mossberg 500 20 gauge with #3 buckshot.

main reason is from my BR door down hall toward main (only)
entry is a straight shot facing due west.

neighbor is due south.

also, behind the entry door is 8 feet (walkway) and then a brick
facade / roof of the adjoining bldg but NO apartment unit there,
just a couple of rails / AC units. So no people and a brick backstop.

From inside 25 feet, I would have no problem using #8 shot (bird)
or # 4 shot (have a few boxes of this called 'heavy turkey').

I've seen the #8, the #4 and the buck shot damage to plywood sheets
(6 deep) from 15 - 40 feet. Any of the 3 will cause an intruder(s)
problems. The buckshot delivers more penetration (of course).
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Old February 8, 2010, 12:49 PM   #10
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I think reduced recoil 00 buck is the best choice. Remember it has to penetrate into the vital organs and have immediate effect on the BG.Every other consideration is secondary !!
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:16 PM   #11
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Or you could go to http://www.boxoftruth.com and draw your own conclusions.
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:17 PM   #12
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beating a dead horse

birdshot for birdies
buckshot for bad guys
repeat
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:23 PM   #13
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I think there needs to be some definition of "birdshot" that is being contemplated. As someone who shoots a lot of clays and hunts small birds like dove and quail, "birdshot" to me is 7-1/2's. To someone who shoots a lot of waterfowl, "birdshot" might mean a 3" load of BB or T.

IF you believe birdshot is your best choice, then at least get something like #2 in about a 1-1/4 or 1-1/2 oz load

YMMV
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:40 PM   #14
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we should have the myth busters test it out...
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:52 PM   #15
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Birds are usually shot at 25 yards or more, but I doubt that any of us would be shooting at anything great than 10 yards inside our homes. 5-7 yards would much more likely be the maximum distance indoors. 7 1/2 birdshot will have SIGNIFICANTLY less spread at 5-7 yards compared to 25 yards or greater, therefore its penetration and stopping power would be more fairly evaluated at the distance at which it would actually be used, since we are talking about HD in this discussion.

I personally have gone back and forth in my own mind about this issue. Currently I have 5 rounds of 00 buck loaded, but I still believe in a fair evaluation of 7 1/2 birdshot loads at realistic HD distances, regardless of what I personally chose to load.

I would LOVE to see this topic on mythbusters, but not sure if they would be willing test a myth that is specifically about shooting intruders...
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:02 PM   #16
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mythbusters are a joke...

....and know nothing about terminal ballistics. :barf:

get terminal ballistics from real experts, here:

http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm#fbiwbs1993
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/...S/GUNBLST.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/macpher.htm
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/index.htm

using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly
If this way overblown "overpenetration" issue is of such a concern, then use number 4 buckshot or get a 20 gauge and shoot No. 3 buck

birdshot for birdies
buckshot for bad guys
repeat
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Old February 8, 2010, 02:07 PM   #17
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No need for mythbusters. It has been tested by the FBI, the Military and dozens of law enforcement agencies for at least 100 years. They all come to the same conclusions. Birdshot usually works OK at near contact ranges. It does not reliably give enough penetration to get to vital organs, especially if it has to get through heavy clothing like denim or leather jackets.

Every law enforcement and military agencey uses buckshot if they want to limit damage to innocent bystanders. There are different sizes of buckshot if you feel the threat of 00 buck is too much. I have no problem using whatever you have. It just seems like a bad idea to plan on birdshot as your 1st option.
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Old February 8, 2010, 05:12 PM   #18
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Yep, here we go again, No one single right answer, that is between you and your situation. I practice with my HD gun a lot, just shot it in the snow today, again, at liter bottles of ice at 8 yards. Not scientific but the results show that at 24' a load of #4 shot will ruin your day.

I have 00, 000 and slugs on my shelf but the 20 gauge Mossberg by my bedroom door is filled with #4 for the simple reason I have family in my house that I do not want to shoot. The longest possible shot in my house is 24' and the most likely distance is under 10'. At 10' that gun and that load makes a thumb sized hole in a 2x4 and at 24' makes a 2 1/2" - 3" pattern. Won't stop a grizzly but they are not my concern.

Use what you are comfortable with. If you don't sleep well at night without a 3 1/2" 12 gauge loaded with Brenneke slugs then that is what you should have.
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Old February 8, 2010, 05:41 PM   #19
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I lived in a typical two up/two down apartment complex for a couple of years, a few years ago. Two apartments upstairs, two apartments downstairs, drywall in between the apartments on the same floor. Then stairs/corridors between the sets of four apartments for an 8-unit building. There were 20 or 25 such buildings in the complex. The buildings were all brick on the outside. Thus the only area of real concern was the wall between the apartments on the same level.

So when I moved in, I set up the furniture so that when I rolled out of bed opposite the door to the bedroom, my back was to the wall between my apartment and my neighbor's. I had the bed between me and the door, and the wall (with no doors or windows, what's sometimes referred to as a 'friendly wall') behind me.

The only shotgun I had at the time was a Remington 870 Express Turkey gun, 21" VR barrel with RemChokes and two beads, and it was loaded with my then-favorite load, Estate's SWAT low-recoil 00 buck 9 pellet. Out of a modified choke, it delivered nice tight patterns in a reliable manner.

I harp a lot about having a home defense plan. Part of that plan IMHO is controlling your exposures and preparing your fields of fire in advance. Shooting through a wall into my own living room would not have been a problem, and any miss toward the BR door would have gone into the LR and then been stopped by a solid brick wall with no windows on the other side, if it got that far through the drywall between BR and LR.

An entry via the one BR window would have meant a raking shot down a wall faced on the inside with drywall that was brick on the outside also. Ever shot drywall at a fairly flat angle with buckshot? It tends to skid or skip a lot instead of penetrating, and flies down the wall more or less parallel with the wall. Then it would have encountered the wall between the BR and the LR, had it penetrated there then it would be on to the the brick wall with no windows on the other side of the LR.

Every individual situation is different, every building is built differently. Unless you are a slave to fung schwei, you can arrange your furniture to take the best advantage of any defensive options your apartment gives you.

If you live in a cardboard and vinyl siding construction like so many are today, then it might not be a bad idea to consider birdshot as a defensive load. But be prepared to shoot more than once if it's necessary. Even with buckshot, no one should have to tell you to RUN THE BOLT and be ready to shoot again if necessary. If you use a pumpgun, running the bolt as soon as the hammer falls should be instinctive- it should require no thought or deliberation.

Birdshot WILL kill at close range. I've zipped up body bags on people killed by birdshot in my short career as an EMT. But it might not always STOP, especially with peripheral hits.

If you have to shoot birdshot for a defensive load (and even if you can shoot buckshot), practice enough to be able to get good center hits UNDER PRESSURE, and always always always be ready to shoot again instantly if necessary. If your target is "the black hoodie" and if there is still a black hoodie in front of your muzzle after you fire the first shot and run the bolt, SHOOT AGAIN INSTANTLY.

Set your mental default to shoot till the designated target (gray sweatshirt, red tee shirt, whatever it is) is no longer in front of your sights when you recover from recoil. And be ready to engage multiple targets if necessary as well. Your gunfight is going to be what it is, not what you want it to be. And it might not be over with one shot. Best not plan on that being the case...

Train and practice, and Stay Safe-

lpl
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Old February 8, 2010, 06:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
If your target is "the black hoodie" and if there is still a black hoodie in front of your muzzle after you fire the first shot and run the bolt, SHOOT AGAIN INSTANTLY.
This is good advice no matter what weapon or load you're using. If you're in a position where you have to shoot to kill, then keep shooting it until it's dead. For all the talk about the "stopping power" of buckshot or a good .45 ACP load, two or three shells of the same will stop MORE.
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Old February 8, 2010, 06:51 PM   #21
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Thank you all. Very nice advice.
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Old February 8, 2010, 07:12 PM   #22
ETCss Phil McCrackin
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Practice is indeed a big part. Great point Lee. Where my point lies is in the importance of using every tool in the toolbox, and using the right tool for the job. Does 00B kill well? Yes. Does it also penetrate walls with the same aplomb? Yes. Does #7 Birdshot fail to stop an opponent as well as it fails to go through walls? Yes. There's alot of rounds between #7 and 00B though, so surely there's a middle ground available. BB shot for example. According to the one test of BB shot I've seen (there's not alot out there) it gets approx 14-16 inches of gelatin penetration while at the same time losing much of it's power after going through 2 sheets of drywall. All of this is at 10-15 yd hall distance. Is it a compromise? Absolutely. But if you live in a world of "no compromises" then why not use a 7.62 rifle for all engagements? Slung over your shoulder for shopping trips.
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Old February 8, 2010, 07:36 PM   #23
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IMHO BBs, #2s, etc are still birdshot- they just get used on bigger birds like geese or turkeys.

YMMV of course,

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