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Old January 30, 2010, 01:34 PM   #1
miykael
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.308 at 300 Yards - What's a Good Group

Hi all. Any long range shooters or snipers know what would be considered a good grouping at 300 Yards using a bipod setup?
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Old January 30, 2010, 01:58 PM   #2
Bart B.
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A good group is 2 inches at 300 yards. A great one's just 1 inch. But there's gotta be at least 20 shots in it. Anything less is usually more luck than the accuracy one can count on all the time.

And groups that average these numbers don't count because about half of all the groups fired will be larger than the average.

That's my opinion. But accuracy is like the opposite sex; a given example will excite some folks but just plain bore others.
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Old January 30, 2010, 02:02 PM   #3
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I would expect a good rifle to group aroun 1.5"-2" off the bench, probably around 4" off a bipod.
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Old January 30, 2010, 02:06 PM   #4
Art Eatman
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One MOA would be three inches. Lotsa sub-MOA .308s out there.

I'd figure that if you reliably get five-shot groups of sub-MOA: Hey, you're good to go. 300 yards is pretty much point-blank, really...

But the occasional sub-MOA group among mostly one- to two-MOA isn't representative of the rifle...
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Old January 30, 2010, 03:35 PM   #5
miykael
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Thanks...

for the replies so far.

I'm shooting a Savage 10FP LE .308 on a bipod, Bushnell 5-15X 3200 Elite Tactical. My first rifle, got it used but it seems to shoot well. Heard a lot of great things about Savage rifles for the cost. I love the Accu-Trigger.

I'm handloading, 168g A-Max with 41.7g Varget (Hornday & Federal brass but waiting for the Lapua I just ordered). When I finally got my rifle sighted in for the 300Y (after 100, 200), my last group had 5 shots within 2" for the farthest 2 shots and 2 shots within the 1" bullseye (one on edge)...and one zinger 2" away from the other 5. I'm hoping to be consistent at this but need to compare with what is considered good. Thanks again.

Last edited by miykael; January 30, 2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: update
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Old January 30, 2010, 04:21 PM   #6
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In the real world of hunting a good group is any that fall within the kill zone of the animal you're after. I will often place a realistic target at the range and use it for practice. The Shoot n See prairie dogs work for me with my CZ .223. This is after getting my rifle sighted in at 200 yards. I shoot from the bench as well as my bipod. Within minute of P Dog is what I'm looking for. If I can consistently place my shot into the kill zone I'm good to go. Target shooting is a different game altogether.
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Old January 30, 2010, 04:34 PM   #7
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I'd like to second what NWCP said. A "good" group also has a lot to do with what your intended uses are. If you're gonna be a seriously competitive long-range target shooter, then I guess something less than 2" (I'm not one of these so I couldn't tell you what is common).

However, if you're gonna hunt, then minute-of-kill zone from realistic hunting situations is what I'd be after. I certainly want a very consistent rifle when shooting from a rest. But once I've established what my groups are and found the right load, I would stop shooting from bench and practice in real-world positions.

Since you talked about a bipod, perhaps you're shooting from a fairly stable ambush position for things like coyotes, deer, or whatever? I've never shot a 10FP, but from all the things I read it's a wonderful rifle. I'd expect that with the right load and good practice, you could put 5-6 shots inside 3" at 300 yards from either prone or really good sitting if you have enough time to set up and get ready.
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Old January 30, 2010, 05:25 PM   #8
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A good group is going to depend on the rifle and ammunition. Standard production rifle 3-4 inch, good production rifle 2-3 inch. A custom 1-1 1/4 inch.

For me, off the ground/bipod are my best groups, a bench just doesn't work for me. Those bench guys shoot incredible groups.

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Old January 30, 2010, 06:25 PM   #9
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Consistant 1-MOA to sub-MOA with 5 shot groups is about all you'll need.
Again as long as your not all around the paper your ok. Still a "kill shot" right?

You dont need to have hole on hole but MOA to Sub MOA is good shooting.
Alot of people think you need to put hole in hole to be a good shooter but
i could count the people that can do that on one hand that can do that
on a daily basis. Shooting from bipod or by hand. Not talking about
the bench rest shooters that have a full set up to hold the rifle and
just tap the trigger and let it fly.

1MOA groups:
3" groups at 300 yrds. is a good group. 4" @ 400. 5" @ 500 ect.
And your set.
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Old January 30, 2010, 07:41 PM   #10
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I hear about an read about one heck of a lot more MOA and sub MOA groups than I see. At the range I see mostly MOF (most of a foot) groups.
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Old January 30, 2010, 08:56 PM   #11
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From what it sounds like, you made a great choice of rifle and optic. Sounds like you are not a novice to re-loading either. Good luck with a great combo!
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Old January 31, 2010, 12:50 AM   #12
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"...I'm handloading, 168g A-Max with 41.7g Varget..." Did you work up the load or just pick one? Forget the bull. Use it as an aiming point only and shoot for a group. Measure the group from the outside to the outside of all shots. Lose the bipod when shooting for groups too. Use a solid rest on a bench.
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Old January 31, 2010, 10:46 AM   #13
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Quote:
One MOA would be three inches. Lotsa sub-MOA .308s out there.
Yeap, problem is, their arnt a lot of sub-moa shooters.

The High Power 300 yard rapid fire target's 10 - X ring is about 2 MOA or a six inch circle. The percent of cleaned targets are relatively small.

Quote:
Hi all. Any long range shooters or snipers know what would be considered a good grouping at 300 Yards using a bipod setup?
I ran quite a bit of sniper schools (NG, RA, & LE). I use to let students start out, using tipods, sandbags, dern near anything they could find to turn the rifle into a solid bench rest set up. Yeap, got some pretty groups. THEN I would fasten two differant colored balloons, some what wiggling around in the wind abit. The baloons were inflated to about 6-8 inches in diameter.

I had the shooters on the "ready line" meaning they had their set up in a case or however they wanted to pack th sucker.

OK folks You have X amount of time to moved firing line and shoot the "blue" balloon, without hitting the "white" balloon.

Oh by the way, this was a 200 yards, so we are talking about 3-4 MOAs.


Try it, you'll find the sub MOA arnt really that much of an advantage, its the shooter, and the operating head space between the shooters ears.

In reality its practice and THINKING, more then sub MOA groups.

Unless you are a bench rest shooter, thats a differant game.
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Old January 31, 2010, 11:31 AM   #14
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Quote:
Measure the group from the outside to the outside of all shots.
Then subtract one bullet diameter, (.308 inch in this case ).
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Old January 31, 2010, 11:45 AM   #15
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FWIW the US Army conducted quite a bit of research back in the 60's to figure out what cartridge/rifle combination delivered the best accuracy at 300meters. This was done to answer the need to for a winning 300meter 3 postion set up as it was still an Olympic event back then.

The answer was the 308 Winchester combined with a 168 grain bullet.

As for groups? Good is relative. A "good" group from a factory production gun is probably a minute of angle for three shots. A good group from a production gun with a better barrel is going to hover around a half minute for at least three shots. (lots of variables here, a 300-378WBY built on a #2 sporter probably won't hold group center past three rounds unless you drink a pot of coffee between each shot to allow the barrel to cool)

A rifle that's a full tilt accuracy job built by someone who understands what it takes to make tiny groups will deliver sub half minute groups routinely. I've built a few NRA Highpower/Palma target guns that have held under 5/8" of an inch at 300 for five shots. Ten shot groups opened up to around an inch and a quarter/half. The palma guns I build are capable of holding about 1/3 moa at 1000 yards if the shooter loads the ammo carefully and can hold good elevation.

All relative and directly tied to your wallet.

Good luck.

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Old January 31, 2010, 01:05 PM   #16
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A rifle that's a full tilt accuracy job built by someone who understands what it takes to make tiny groups will deliver sub half minute groups routinely. I've built a few NRA Highpower/Palma target guns that have held under 5/8" of an inch at 300 for five shots. Ten shot groups opened up to around an inch and a quarter/half. The palma guns I build are capable of holding about 1/3 moa at 1000 yards if the shooter loads the ammo carefully and can hold good elevation.
Please don't tell me that a guy can flop down on his belly and shoot a group like that with his bi pod.

And for you guys using bi pods, are you using a rear bag? jd
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Old January 31, 2010, 01:51 PM   #17
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Seems to me that if one is using a bipod, a free-floated barrel is pretty much a "must have". Any variance of pressure of stock to barrel can easily mess up group size.
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Old January 31, 2010, 02:10 PM   #18
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Anything under three inches is respectable in MHO
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Old January 31, 2010, 08:32 PM   #19
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jdscholer claims:
Quote:
The palma guns I build are capable of holding about 1/3 moa at 1000 yards if the shooter loads the ammo carefully and can hold good elevation.
For how many shots?

They must all go in one half inch hole at 300 yards to do that well at 1000.
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Old January 31, 2010, 08:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
jdscholer claims:
Quote:
The palma guns I build are capable of holding about 1/3 moa at 1000 yards if the shooter loads the ammo carefully and can hold good elevation.
That was actually Longrifles Inc.
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Old January 31, 2010, 09:16 PM   #21
DanimalFL
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Long Range Shooter's are a lot like fisherman......
I'm not saying their aren't big fish, but people rarely shoot as well as they say they can. I dunno whats wrong with this gun today....
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Old January 31, 2010, 10:04 PM   #22
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Hunting rifle, fist size group, target rifle 50 cent piece size group, serious competition thumbnail or smaller size, what is your purpose for asking?

Me personally all my rifles except one will hold fist size or better, my 308 will hold 2 1'2" or better and my 30-06 I am happy if I am still in the scoring ring of a standard 50 yard small bore rifle target, a little less than 6". Won't take that one to a shooting competition but good enough with iron sights for poking a hole in a deer with.

You do know this is kind of like asking what is a good color on my Camaro. You don[t care about the color you just want to brag about your gun. That's cool, I like it. Now post some pictures of your gun and targets.
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Old January 31, 2010, 10:44 PM   #23
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Depends on the shooter and the rifle. In any case no matter the shooter or the rifle, a 3" group at 300yds (in my book) is a solid group. If you want to get into top notch shooting 1-2" group is a good.
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Old February 1, 2010, 01:36 AM   #24
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Meet Cyle Leibertrau, 2007 world Palma Champion, US Junior Team



I built this rifle in 2005.

FWIW Palma and any NRA Highpower "cross the course" competitive shooting is done with Iron sights. It's shot using no artificial support. that means two hands, one shoulder, and the use of a sling in all positions except the standing. There's no bi pods or rests in any of this.

Doubt its possible? Go to a world/National event once. With good weather and a talented trigger puller the guns WILL hold a 1/3rd minute of elevation at 1,000 yards. Doubt, deny, scoff all you want. I've seen it done and its been done more than once. Is it done every day? Certainly not. Dale Earnhardt didn't win every race or set every record possible every time he started and engine either, but who will say he wasn't one the most talent driver's ever.

Bear in mind these aren't rack grade rifles bought at Walmart. They are several thousand dollar purpose built rifles with owners that spend more time training that some here do working at a full time job.

All I am saying is don't let spectator's arrogance or skepticism get the better of you. It's done more frequently than you think. I've built guns for Olympic athletes, longrange national team members, and a few other talented trigger pullers. Hang around in that circle for awhile and see what's possible before blasting the internet with "oh come on nows".

I'll dig up some plot sheets from when I was an armorer for the 03 Palma Team. Lemme track em down and you'll see.

As for a 1/3rd MOA at a thousand means a 1/3rd MOA at 300 as well? That'd be a BIG NO and I'll explain why. A boat tail bullet doesn't settle down as quick as a flat base does (which is why BR guys use flat base bullets for matches that don't go beyond 300 yards). They will quite often wander a bit till about the 300 yard mark, then they'll start to run much better. This was a very heated debate on another forum/thread recently. The fact is its true and if you call Sierra, Berger, or any other marquee bullet company they will tell you the same thing. a 1/3rd group at 1000 doesn't mean a gun is holding an inch at 300 yards. In fact quite often it won't which is why palma guns are typically tested at 600 yards to evaluate performance.

Also, palma is 15 rounds for record prone at 800, 900, and 1000 yards. No this does not mean every shot stays inside of 3 1/2 inches either, but the mean average of group sizes over several days of shooting does show trends and this is where the figure comes from. As anyone can appreciate it's very easy to allow a gun to wander outside that tight of a hold. If we are talking rifle accuracy and not shooter accuracy then the "fliers" can't be factored as strictly equipment error. that being said the mean average comes into play and over the course of several days of shooting in good conditions a trend will develop. This is where plot sheets become very valuable to both shooter, coach, and gunsmith. It's a diagnostic tool as well as performance evaluator.

Sorry for the long winded response. Hopefully this educated and didn't stir the chit even more.



Cheers,

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Old February 1, 2010, 02:07 AM   #25
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Quote:
Please don't tell me that a guy can flop down on his belly and shoot a group like that with his bi pod.
Here is the target...



And, here is the rifle...



Which now looks like this...



Savage 10FP-LE2A, in .308; now with a Choate Short Action Tactical stock, adapted to take the CDI bottom metal, with AI 10 round magazines. For optics, the scope is a Nightforce NXS 8-32x56, in Burris Signature Zee rings.

The target was done with what I call the "drop and pop" exercise.

Starting in the standing position with rifle and one round, on the command of FIRE, drop to the prone, load the round, acquire the target and fire one round. This is done in 15 seconds per shot. There are 15 rounds in that target, fired at 100 yards. Ammunition used for that exercise was 168 grain Gold Medal Match. Since then, my Department issues 175 grain Gold Medal Match.

I am in the process of having another rifle built for duty use. The gunsmith guarantees his rifles to shoot 0.25 MOA (roughly 1/4 inch).

So yes, there are people who can flop into the prone and shoot reasonably well.
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