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Old January 30, 2010, 07:37 PM   #51
JohnKSa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikrnu
If open carry is activism then I'm an activist.
Since you have already posted that you consider open carry to be activism ("Carrying the handgun was political activism...") then by your own definition, quoted above, you consider yourself to be an activist. That means that your claim ("I never considered myself to be a political activist.") is contradictory to your own words as posted on this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwikrnu
I know why cops stop me...
If you claim you know why then stop pretending you don't know why.

Again, let me caution you that if you make it clear that you are not interested in discussing the legal and civil rights aspects of your experience but rather want to "stir the pot" by making ridiculous statements and contradictory claims then you are publicly stating your desire to lose your posting privileges on TFL.
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Old January 30, 2010, 07:48 PM   #52
kwikrnu
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Here is a civil rights question, since cops insist on harrassing law abiding gun owners and violating civil rights why don't more people complain?
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Old January 30, 2010, 07:51 PM   #53
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That, particularly as it applies to firearm civil rights, is a reasonable question, and I'm sure that the esteemed members of TFL will do their best to come up with some practical explanations and opinions.
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Old January 30, 2010, 08:07 PM   #54
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I'm not a lawyer, or a civil rights activist. I'm not even that clever really, but if I saw a fellow walking down my street with a gun in his hand I'd be on the phone to the police and I know without a doubt that they'd show up in a hurry. Carrying a gun in your hand is a provocative action that in our culture demands a response. While witnessing such a thing might not put me in immediate fear for my life or someone elses, it would sure make me take cautionary measures. Maybe those here with more legal knowhow than I have would be able to determine if this is disturbing the peace or somesuch. I certainly don't want to see it in my neighborhood.

I'll add this. My wife works in law enforcement. I know several police officers. There aren't any of them that are "ignorant" or "crooked" in my town. They are a stand up bunch of guys and gals really that do a great job. To think that these officers go to work every day looking for an excuse to oppres folks is kind of silly.
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Old January 30, 2010, 08:51 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltravis
Maybe those here with more legal knowhow than I have would be able to determine if this is disturbing the peace or somesuch.
I can tell you how disturbing the peace and open carry works here in Washington state. Washington state legislature has seen fit in their judgment to permit the open method of carry of a firearm. That means that the legislature does not consider the act of openly carrying a firearm, by itself, absent other behaviors to be of such a nature as to prohibit it.

Therefore, the courts in Washington, when presented with cases of disturbing the peace, based solely on the open carrying of a firearm, absent any other behavior, has ruled that that act by itself cannot be disturbing the peace, otherwise the legislature would have criminalized that method of carry.

There is no way the kwiknru could have been disturbing the peace. He was carrying a modern replica of the firearm specified to be carried in the statute and he was carrying it in the ONLY way that was legal to do so as allowed in the statute. It's not even a matter of he was doing something that was not prohibited by law... he was doing an act that was specified as the ONLY way to conduct that act by law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eviltravis
I'll add this. My wife works in law enforcement. I know several police officers. There aren't any of them that are "ignorant" or "crooked" in my town. They are a stand up bunch of guys and gals really that do a great job. To think that these officers go to work every day looking for an excuse to oppres folks is kind of silly.
I have come across one arrogant police officer in my town. I would never say that the police force in my town are all arrogant or ignorant based on that one officer. Every once in a while you do run across a power-hungry cop, like the one I dealt with, but I agree with you...99% are doing a very difficult and dangerous job to the best of their ability and they deserve our respect and admiration. But I still won't let them violate any of my rights
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Old January 30, 2010, 09:05 PM   #56
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All right, lets try another tack here: There are several reports of a man gun. (For the sake of this argument, we will also assume that a man carrying a gun is not an everyday occurrence in this jurisdiction.) The police decide to do nothing and ignore the whole situation.
Now that same man is involved in a shooting in which someone is killed. That someone is your significant other. When you find out about the police knew there was a man with a gun in public, and did nothing to stop him, what is your reaction?

Also, I agree that ignorance of the law is not a defense. Unfortunately, sometimes we only find out about a law when we break it. Wouldn't it be much more prudent to have told the police, and shown them a copy of, the law? Use the situation to your advantage? When you bait someone into doing something illegal, you can not later charge them with doing something illegal, unless you are willing to take some responsibility for it also. What the original poster did, and has done repeatedly, is try to bait LEOs, by causing a public concern.

As a former cop, I am darn sure going to stop you and search you if I see you waking downtown with a gun, where a gun is not normally seen. I do not know who you are, I do not know what your purpose is, nor what you intend to do. I am going to detain you as long as it takes until I can verify what you have told me.

The OP has stated the area where he pulled this stunt was a very influential area, in which Al Gore and other high profile people live. People like Al Gore and other high profile people, especially in this economy, are subjected to threats and robbery from people who are not all that balanced. How is a cop supposed to know someone is taking their pistol for a stroll, just because a very obscure law dating to 150 years ago say that is how they must stroll with it?
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Old January 30, 2010, 09:39 PM   #57
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If we put the street theater aspect of this incident aside, I think the law only allowing open carry in the hand is detrimental to open carry in general.
If I see someone openly carrying a holstered side arm that dose not throw up the red flag near as fast as a weapon in the hand.

I would think if I was LE a weapon in the hand would prompt me to take immediate action and thoroughly cover all bases to ensure public safety.
When it comes to LE, it is hard sometimes, but I try to keep in mind the imposable task they are charged with of protecting the public. Even when that means my sensitive toes get stepped on a bit.

I think that follows from "we the people" charging LE with a task that we should shoulder more of the responsibility for instead of crying "pore helpless me" and hitting them with a law suite when they don't show up fast enough to protect us. (I know I am mostly preaching to the choir)
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Old January 30, 2010, 10:05 PM   #58
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Quote:
I know why cops stop me, they are ignorant or crooked.
...and we come around to the real point of these antics: baiting cops and then bashing them for doing their jobs.

Had you posted that you openly carried a holstered gun around Belle Meade to protest an unjust ordinace, and that you'd been unlawfully detained and searched, the experience would have merited mention here.

But, as you stated, your activities had nothing to do with activism. You've no stated interest in changing anything. All you did was Freak Out the Squares. I'm sure the pro-gun folks in that town cringed.

If the ordinance does violate Tennessee's constitution (I'll let TN-savvy folks chime in on that) or if it was simply ludicrous, then how hard would it really have been to repeal? My guess is that it's on the books simply because nobody ever noticed it. Furthermore, I'd lay odds that there has never been a single criminal prosecution under it.

Usually, a brief statement at a city council meeting or a few focused letters are enough to get it thrown out.

That's how it's supposed to work, and it does so without engendering any ill will of any sort. If you'd done that, you'd have my sympathies, and likely my thanks.

Quote:
At what point do we have any right to judge a LAWFUL behavior as being "bad for our cause", "over the top," or "grandstanding?" When we make judgments like that of others, are we not guilty of the same actions that we accuse those "more anti" than us of?
That's a really good question, and different people will draw the line in different places. In this case, I'd argue that we have a behavior that definitely doesn't help. Intent, presentation, time and place should all be considered. At the end of the day, we are better than our adversaries, and we must act the part.

So, yes, someone who's well-dressed, polite and carrying openly doesn't bother me. Good for them. But when it's done for the sake of self-gratifying theatrics, or to deliberately disturb people, I have a real problem with it. The latter can cause problems for all of us, whether we're on board or not.

Quote:
Keep in mind Rosa Parks refusing to go to the back of the bus was planned out, not a spur of the moment thing.
I keep seeing this analogy, and could we please stop using it? It has the potential to seriously offend some on the surface, and what's more, there's little equivalence.

I've never been denied employment or paid a lower wage than someone else because I'm a gun owner. My children aren't forced to go to separate schools than those whose parents send money to the Brady Campaign. I may get grumbled at by liberal dinner guests, but nobody's ever burned a cross in my front yard.

There are better, less potentially embarrassing ways to make our point.
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Old January 30, 2010, 10:09 PM   #59
gearchecker
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Quote:
Here is a civil rights question, since cops insist on harrassing law abiding gun owners and violating civil rights why don't more people complain?
IMOH You seem to be bordering on a point that may be considered harassment of the Police and Park Rangers. I'm surprised that they haven't yet sent you a bill for disruption of their services and duties.
You want to argue your civil rights - go to the ACLU, and see if they'll stand in your defense. Does the law state Army/Navy pistols and replicas, or just Army/Navy Pistols? Your handgun isn't an Army or Navy revolver, it's a wanna-be replica,

How is a LEO to know that you are an abiding gun owner and not a threat to the citizenry of their city, without making certain that you are unarmed other than what they can see with the naked eye. Threats not discovered have killed many a LEO and citizen.
You are a threat, until they can absolutly prove otherwise and a search of your person is the only way to assure the threat is abated. A physical search of your person and clothing should be considered not only acceptable but it's prudent for them to secure the area of all threats, seen and unseen.

After my comments you should never again think or assume that what you did is excusable as a "normal" gun carrying gun owner.

Remember the incident at Fort Hood Texas a few months ago?
That threat wasn't taken seriously and many good people were injured and died because of the lack of preventive actions.

IMO - You should seriously consider seeing a doctor about the rationality of your thoughts.
Your actions are not only daring and close to suicidal, but they're not those of a person that's consider to be full of their faculties.
At what point is somebody going to take your gun toting actions as a direct threat to another citizen, and dispatch justice on you for those actions. What are you going to do when a law abiding citizen sees you walking down the street with a gun in your hand and decides to neutralize the threat you pose to them and/or their neighbors. They'll probably be within their rights as a citizen, trying to protect themselves from the threat coming from you.
How are you going to repond when a citizen tries to disarm you? They probably won't be quite so understanding of your "rights", when they see you walking down the street with a gun in your hand.

Personally I think you got away lucky, with only a simple search and stop by the local LEO's.

Lastly,
I feel that you're using this forum with your own drum beating to ilicit responses for no reason, other than to propigate your rhetoric and unrealsitic beliefs of the infringement on your rights as only you see them.
If you eventually get banned from this forum I'll understand the reasoning behind it.
I won't respond to any answers to my comments either. I'll read your response if you so choose to do so, but an additional response from me you won't get.
Thanks TFL for such an awesome Forum.
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Last edited by gearchecker; January 30, 2010 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Spelling errors
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Old January 30, 2010, 10:16 PM   #60
Double Naught Spy
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Quote:
I know why cops stop me, they are ignorant or crooked. Either way I am tired of the harrassment and I am going to take them to task for their behavior.
No, they stop you because you appear to be involved in an illegal activity and as good cops should do, they investigate the situation which involves stopping you. There would be no way to ascertain the pistol you are open carrying is being carried illegally or if it is a possibly legal gun to carry.
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Old January 30, 2010, 11:06 PM   #61
kilimanjaro
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The next time you feel like exercising your constitutional right to be stupid, don't do it with a firearm.

The police did nothing illegal, your rights were not violated, and you are lucky not to be in jail for disturbing the peace, legal carry or not.
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Old January 30, 2010, 11:54 PM   #62
RedneckFur
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Quote:
Its fine to push the envelope and demand your rights,but dont be pis*ed

off when it goes bad.Walking through town with a weapon in your

hand?My reaction as an M.P. would have been to draw down on you with my M16 ,

praying that you do something stupid.After i had you on your belly spread

eagled,and made sure you didnt have any more weapons on you,i would

probably accidentally kick you in the bal*s during my search
This is perhaps the most disgraceful thing in this entire thread. A suposed LEO admitting to to doing illigal things, in order to prove his point. If the poster is being honest when he wrote this, he should be very ashamed. This is an insult to every honest, hard working LEO here.
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Old January 31, 2010, 12:22 AM   #63
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Quote:
And the anti-OC concealed carry only crowd say the same things about those of us who carry modern handguns in holsters on our belts.

And the anti-gun crowd say the same things about both the open carry crowd and the concealed carry crowd.
You're missing the point. The OP wasn't merely exercising a right. He apparently went out of his way to go to someone else's neighborhood and deliberately evoke a response by LEO and potentially cause harm to the open carry, pro-gun movement. Yet, police showed restraint and did not arrest him. They merely detained him for 15 minutes while checking him out. Then he comes to a public forum to bash the police. Thus, it's not about the movement, it's about him. That's narcissism to my way of thinking.
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Old January 31, 2010, 12:46 AM   #64
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Quote:
That's narcissism to my way of thinking.
He seems to be enjoying every minute of it as well. I did some searching, and I cannot find a gun forum to which he has not posted this.

It's interesting to see how the reactions vary from one group to the next. In any case, we've certainly indulged him, and looking at the whole situation, I feel as if I've been pulled into an elaborate practical joke.

If this was meant to be some postmodern participatory theater of the absurd, kwikrnu, well played. My hat's off.

(Please tell me that's what it really is.)
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Old January 31, 2010, 02:32 AM   #65
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I guess if the cops didn't stop you in my neighbor hoop I'd be pretty upset. The neighbors see some corn nut walking down the street with a gun in his hand. I'd expect nothing less from them but to take your gun, search your pockets and run the gun to see if it is stolen. I'd enjoy watching as they hopefully, "accidently" dropped you on your head in hopes to knock some sense into you. "Ignorant cops" is what I would be saying if they didn't check you out...
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Old January 31, 2010, 06:30 AM   #66
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If there are any Brady Bunchers lurking on these forums I believe they have just found their poster boy.
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Old January 31, 2010, 06:46 AM   #67
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heck, you can't even just walk around with a 'gun in your hand' at my gun club.....

think about it....

I think we got somebody who wants to be the Rosa Parks of the 2nd Amd.
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Old January 31, 2010, 08:48 AM   #68
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"By that logic, anyone could be searched at ay time, because how are police to know if anyone has weapon in their pocket?"



Yeah, that's certainly the case. The courts have NEVER EVER ONCE IN OVER 200 YEARS drawn a distinction between what is visually observable and what is not.

That's why the police are, at this very moment, digging around under the seats of your car looking for hidden contraband.

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Old January 31, 2010, 09:02 AM   #69
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Holy Farging Schnitz!

I've not read this for a couple of days, and in going through it just now I'm simply disgusted with some of you clowns.

First we have someone who claims to be a cop talking about gleefully assaulting restrained prisoners. You're a "credit" to your badge and profession, and are the reason so many people despise police. It's a pity that you bring that kind of playground bully boy attitude here to TFL. I suggest leaving it somewhere else next time.

Then we have multiple, and pretty incredible, flying face leaps of logic right into blank walls. That's gotta leave a mark.

And then we have all of the lovely little oh-so-close-to-the-line pejorative attacks.

Finally, we have the OP. You know, technically (and I mean VERY technically, as I would say that many of your initial claims about the gun and the law are open to wide interpretation) you may NOT have done anything illegal.

Intelligent? That's another question entirely.

But in my opinion, you deserve a swift kick in the ass for making all gun owners look like foaming nutcakes. Open carry in a holster is one thing, but walking around with the gun in your hand? I would call the police on you myself were I to see that in my neighborhood.

All of this boils down to this...

I'm pretty disgusted with a lot of you. And I'm pretty disgusted with this thread.

I'm closing the thread. Be glad that I don't close some of you.
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