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Old February 4, 2010, 07:25 PM   #76
ADB
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Quote:
Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly - just don't keep insisting others make the same mistake as you
No one here is "insisting" that anyone use birdshot. Some of us are simply pointing out that some people here are engaging in what boils down to really bad science with a strong overtone of scaremongering. The bogeyman scenarios spun out here of PCP-laden psychotics wrapped in bullet-repelling clothing bear little to no resemblance to anything that you're ever likely to encounter in a real-world home defense situation.

Quote:
This statement is factually incorrect. Gelatin is equivalent to muscle tissue. Bones affect penetration, especially when the projectile is too light, soft, and slow to break bone. Additionally, heavy clothing will, in fact, significantly affect the penetration of small shot. You are spreading a great deal of misinformation in your posts. I suggest you do some more research before displaying your lack of knowledge any more.
As I said: Ballistic gel is designed to mimic the penetration of a bullet through human tissue. In scientific testing, measures are taken to simulate reduced penetration for clothing and/or bones. This can be done by increasing the mixture thickness of the gel, lowering it's temperature, or more elaborately by placing actual physical obstructions over or inside it. By calculating relative densities, the testers can determine the actual performance of a round.

I'll say again what I've said before. At home defense ranges, anything coming out of a 12 gauge barrel will be fatal. If some people choose to use different rounds for controlled penetration, that's their business, and they don't need people on here yelling that they're endangering their families, or perpetuating dubious conventional wisdom.
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Old February 4, 2010, 07:48 PM   #77
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So your contention is that small shot will reliably penetrate through bone and heavy clothing to a sufficient depth to reach vital organs? Again, factually incorrect.

Of course one could depend on the psychological effect of being shot to stop the aggressor, and admittedly it would most often work. Heck, the vast majority of defensive gun uses are resolved without firing a shot, so you'd most often be ok with a totally unloaded gun. But neither of those facts is germaine to a discussion of the effectiveness of small shot.
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Old February 4, 2010, 07:54 PM   #78
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"Cheap buck shot is +/- $10 bucks for 15 rounds and suits me fine, goes BANG when I need it to.
Brent "


Wal Mart has 15 round boxes of Remington 2 3/4 00 Buckshot for $7.50!!!!!
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Old February 4, 2010, 08:09 PM   #79
ETCss Phil McCrackin
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A guy can "what if" himself from now till Ragnarok if he's not careful. What if the intruder is your son, sent from the future to warn you of a Terminator, and you don't recognize him and drill him with round of whatever?

My overarching point is that no situation or setup is the same, and therefore there is no "one round fits all" answer. That's the beauty of a shotgun, you can carry multiple rounds for different threats. In addition, you have to analyze what the "most likely" scenario might be and plan accordingly, playing the odds, so to speak. For instance, in my case, I: #1- Am most concerned, coming out of my room with my shotgun in a sudden situation, with a lightly dressed (SE Georgia) home invader between my room and my kids. #2- I will probably be at the worst possible moment of consciousness/awareness, and therefore cannot count on x-ring hits. #3- Based on the layout of my home, the use of BB shot provides the ability to balance effectiveness with most limited penetration. However, if the situation allows greater situational awareness, time to assess, or there are tactical challenges, I can adapt as the problem develops.

Everyone should make an informed analysis of their specific situation and plan accordingly and to say that "00B is all you should use" is just as reckless as saying that all you should use is slugs or birdshot.
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Old February 4, 2010, 08:36 PM   #80
Nnobby45
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Quote:
So looking at a home defense scenario, using Birdshot anywhere from 10-17ft, where penetrating a wall is not an issue, what Birdshot is lethal (if any)? Or what is a cheaper alternative I may not of thought of?
This subject has been discussed on many threads on many sites. Including this one.

If you want to rely on ammo from a SHOTGUN that becomes ineffective as it BEGINS to spread out, then that's contrary to the principle behind the shotgun with multiple projectiles. When bird shot spreads and still has a dense enough pattern, it still penetrates birds.

For hostile individuals bent on your murder, use ammo that's still effective when it spreads enough to develop a pattern, or use a single projectile.
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Old February 4, 2010, 08:39 PM   #81
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No scaremongering here, just a reality check on what different types of scenarios may be encountered and play out during a home invasion, burglary or assault.

It's better to be overgunned than undergunned.
Using Peter Capstick's quote: "use enough gun" is applicable to this thread.
If said BG is armed and not incapacitated by your first round of less-lethal or birdshot, there's the potential for the gangsta assailant to shoot back at you using the wildly inaccurate sideways spray-and-pray technique possibly creating even more collateral damage.

Buckshot isn't positively guaranteed to incapacitate bad guys, but has greater potential for faster incapacitation.


Always make the first shot count!
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Old February 4, 2010, 08:43 PM   #82
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concessions/clarification

I had no idea that my "grim death" comment would ignite such a firestorm. I posted same regards the #2Hevi-Shot SD load by Rem because I had not seen or heard of same prior and it seemed interesting to me the a major ammo company had seen fit to market a large bird shot pellet made of space metal as a SD load. It would seemed that Rem saw a market niche and was offering a product, an improved product, for that role. To me, that's interesting. Rem's goal is to sell shells and make money. Their endorsement of the birdshot concept, while certainly motivated by profit, makes me wonder what comments they might/ or tests/experiments in the matter, they might add to our discussion. Hypothetical, yes... , but I just wonder what they might know that I do not. Because Rem is selling it does not justify the practice, but it raises some interesting questions.

As a flag of truce, allow me the following comments:

-OO buck and #4 buck's larger pellets do penetrate more, especially at less than very short range, and irregardless of the medium, than any birdshot

-shooting in the direction of any innocents is a major no-no

-#2 hevishot is not your typical bird load. Individual pellets of this stuff sails clear through medium size varmints and pests at distances of 20-30 yds, maybe more. It's big brother T-shot, or T-buck, more so.

-within the distances I was referring to in what I thought was a humorous toned post (say 15 feet, max, but I live in a fairly wee humble cottage) an oz. plus swarm of these pellets in a 12 in or so cloud would be very destructive.

Rem seems to be offering an improved load for the birdshot crowd.

BTW both of my SD/HD shotguns are loaded w/ reduced recoil OO buck as I write this. I have loaded a coach gun w/ birdshot in a ultra urban setting like a motel room.
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Old February 4, 2010, 09:01 PM   #83
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My SxS Baikal coachgun is loaded with Aguila Mini-Slugs.
.72 dia slug weighing 385gr @ 1250 fps ~ they make nice, clean wadcutter holes in the 10-ring out to 25yds.

Hevi-Shot T is comparable to #4 buck, but expensive as heck! [and kicks like a gov't mule]
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Old February 4, 2010, 09:20 PM   #84
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No need to get testy McCrackin. I agree there is no "one size fits all" I merely disagree with your analysis. Either your kid is not in the line of fire (rendering small shot moot) or the kid is (rendering discharging any weapon toward 'em a bad idea). However, it's your life and your children, so I don't feel any need to try to talk you out of it. I merely point out what I feel are logical fallacies in your argument so others may understand the (what I perceive to be) flaws in your plan.

Also, for the small shot folks. Will your chosen load penetrate through an aggressor's arm if it happens to be in the way of the shot column?
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Old February 4, 2010, 10:05 PM   #85
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Don't misunderstand, I'm not being testy. I simply don't concur with the idea that every situation calls for the same answer. It's not as simple as, "is the kid in the line of fire", it's COULD the kid be in the line of fire. In an uncertain and dynamic night situation, it's hard to ascertain what could be behind an intruder, so I assume that the kids ARE. And if the need arises that requires a shot, I feel more comfortable having taken steps to assist their safety. Also, data I have seen indicates penetration in gelatin of around 12 inches for standard BB shot, so I feel comfortable that in 95% of scenarios, it will be effective. As to that last 5%, it's a calculated risk I feel is offset by the added safety from overpenetration.

Again, there's no "round for everything", so why plan like there is?
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Old February 5, 2010, 02:09 AM   #86
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Quote:
Overpenetration issues a concern? Drop to one knee and shoot at an upwards angle.

NICE

Rampant_Colt

Tactics & gun SAFETY RULE #1

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

SAFE for the Family ,not safe for the target.

NICE


.

Last edited by noyes; February 5, 2010 at 02:40 AM.
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Old February 5, 2010, 10:27 AM   #87
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I'm still trying to figure out from the OP what difference it makes at 20 feet or so what shot you practice with.

Sounds like extending a training habit to a place it serves no purpose.
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Old February 5, 2010, 10:36 AM   #88
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Anyone shot anything other than birds with birdshot? I have shot a porcupine at 15 feet and a rabid raccoon at around 20, both with #6 birdshot because that is what I had with me at the time. Neither was adequate to the task and closer follow up shots were required.

I've also shot small critters at contact distance and birdshot is fatal, so is rubber buckshot or even blanks if you are close enough. If part of your plan is to allow a threat to get closer so your round of choice will work then I'd respectfully suggest you rethink your plan.

Train with whatever you like. When you get serious select a round that will get the job done.
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Old February 7, 2010, 07:03 PM   #89
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other critters w/ birdshot

Well yeah.......geez who hasn't. More rabbits w/ a 3"-.410 and 7-1/2 shot than you could fill two pickup's with, at distances out to 25 yds or more. A few squirrels, but Dad insisted a squirrel was a .22 target. Rats, feral cats. 'Coons, possums. Armadillo's (they are a LITTLE tough, , think armored possums). Darn timber rattler as big around as my calf.

At the dx's your talking about (under 10 yds) a mod or full choked 12 ga and a field load of #6 would/did pulverize any/all of the above. I mean like hamburger.

Biggest things I have shot w/ #6 were marauding coyotes both in spring turkey season. Both males, say 30 lbs. One came in to call, looking for a turkey sandwich no doubt. The other stalked my hen decoy. Both were shot w/ 3" #6 at 20 yds. or so. One never even twitched, w/ the pattern centered on the chest! Many of the pellets exited the off side. The other was a head shot and after the obligatory flops, he didn't get up either.

Experiences like this have made be believe that a dense concentrated load of shot at short distances is very bad news to what ever it hits.
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Old February 8, 2010, 01:49 AM   #90
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personally, my setup for my remington 1100 is 2 7.5 winchester super X birdshot followed by 3 winchester 00 buckshot. but i live in a apartment where i would have to worry about "over penetration". a.k.a. don't wanta hit the neighbors lol.
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Old January 24, 2011, 07:06 PM   #91
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A little late,but my two cents worth!

I am an upland game hunter and enjoy hunting quail in heavy brush the most. I still hunt with the Browning Auto-5 lightweight 12ga with a 26" IC barrel that I purchased while in high school in 1966. It is my home defense gun too!

I have been told that I am crazy only keeping four loads of 31/4 dr. equiv. 1/14 oz of #6 lead shot locked in the magazine for defense. However, I do not know of anyone that would want to stand about 15-20' in front of me and let me open fire! That would probably be about the distance I would be from someone breaking into my home. At that range my old Browning has a spread of about 18" and I can easily get off four well aimed shots in about five seconds. I have never pointed a gun at anyone, and I hope that continues. However, if my life is in danger I would be shooting at the intruders face. It would take some rather heavy armor to completely protect the face from four loads of #6's fired from my 12ga. at under 20'.

I have fired thousands of rounds through that old Browning over the years, and it just does not jam, and I know the gun very well. Knowing what I know a person would have to be crazy to come face to muzzle with anyone that is holding any gauge shotgun loaded with any size birdshot at under 20 feet!
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Old January 24, 2011, 10:05 PM   #92
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ZeroJunk, I cannot speak for the OP but my thinking would be that if you only trained with target loads, but kept your gun loaded with 00 buck for HD, you may not recover as well from the first shot taken in an emergency. Your follow up shot(s) may be slow to take and poorly placed if you aren't ready for the kick and sound of a heavy load.

Last edited by TheKlawMan; January 24, 2011 at 11:54 PM.
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Old January 25, 2011, 02:06 PM   #93
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It worked here

http://www.timesunion.com/local/arti...ion-974019.php
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Old January 25, 2011, 03:09 PM   #94
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If anybody has any serious concerns about the lethality of birdshot at the ranges the OP cited, they need to talk to a trauma doc or nurse at any large medical center. It is the wound they hate the most, one VERY few survive for long.

As for the poster who had trouble killing medium-sized varmints at 15 or 20', have you checked your shotgun's POI recently? That just seems all wrong to me; I've killed full grown coyotes dead dead at 25 yards with a 12 loaded with magnum 4s many times. Not to mention turkeys, which are tougher than many think. Sounds like you hit with the very edge of the pattern to me....
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Old January 25, 2011, 05:42 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Armstrong
If anybody has any serious concerns about the lethality of birdshot at the ranges the OP cited, they need to talk to a trauma doc or nurse at any large medical center. It is the wound they hate the most, one VERY few survive for long.
Lethality is not the issue. Someone shot with birdshot at close range is very likely to die. But chances are fairly high, that for someone truly intent on doing you harm, it will not be an immediate fight-stopper. And that is the whole point in a self-defense encounter.

Buckshot has a much better chance of penetrating deep enough to hit vital organs or major blood vessels, which will quickly incapacitate even the most determined attacker.

Can birdshot be effective in quickly stopping a violent criminal? Absolutely. In most cases, an attacker staring down the barrel of a shotgun will give up or flee. That is of course the best possible result, and in these cases, it doesn't matter what type of ammunition is loaded.

Birdshot certainly plays a vital role in some situations. Living in an apartment with thin walls that you have no idea who or what is on the other side, birdshot makes sense. For the majority of situations, however, buckshot is a better choice.

Only you know the specific details of your own environment as well as your own abilities. Many things need to be taken into consideration when choosing ammunition type(s) for home defense. If, for whatever reason, birdshot is all that you can use, by all means go ahead and use it. But if circumstances permit the use of buckshot, save your birdshot for birds or range practice.
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Old January 26, 2011, 11:17 AM   #96
Bartholomew Roberts
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...&postcount=113

So in that post, we have a 94yr old man shot at contact distance with 12ga birdshot. Goes to bed and then gets up the next morning and goes to the hospital.

Then we have a 14yr old girl shot in the face from across the porch. Survives by running away.

And of course, John Farnam's Winchester 1897 duel where the bad guy gets hit in the face with birdshot from 6' and then kills the person who shot him and drives 100 miles back home.

Admittedly, freaky things happen with any type of ammunition; but it seems that birdshot in a 12ga, even at close range, and even when striking vital areas, often doesn't produce great results in even medium-sized mammals.
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Old January 30, 2011, 11:04 PM   #97
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Interesting Discussion here...

I do remember a shooting in Olympia, WA. around 2000 were a couple and child just moved into an apartment and were woken to find an intruder breaking in the front door and not taking threats to leave. The intruder was shot through the door with a 410 and birdshot through his winter coat and killed him. The tenants were interviewed and deemed by the police of wanting to just protect themselves. It was a eye opening report but showed the lethality of this combination.
My choice with children in the house in a crowded neighborhood with houses 4 yards away has been #4-6 birdshot with backup Rem. Red. Recoil slugs on the sidesaddle. I would think anyone taking the barrage of a 12 ga. and birdshot would rethink his motives. For those who resist then 2-7 slugs should help tip the balance. Perhaps if I lived in the country where my nearest neighbor was 1/2-2 miles away, then #2-4 buckshot or slugs would be more appropriate. I am a peaceful man but I would show no mercy to those who would try do harm to my family-and at the very least go down trying...
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Old January 30, 2011, 11:44 PM   #98
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I have a Remington Sprotsman with a 2 shot tube and one in the chamber. I use 00 buck. However, I also have some birdshot loads. If birdshot was all I had I would do three head shots. At 30 feet (the maximum distance in my house) 3 head shots would do in a bad guy no matter what I was shooting. Maybe we should use quarters like Alice in that latest post apocylypse movie...
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Old February 1, 2011, 10:35 PM   #99
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I suggest a lot of you try checking the pattern of buckshot in your shotgun at different ranges. With a full choke in a defensive shotgun you're looking at a fist size group at the standard distance of defensive shootings.
Quote:
I prefer more scientific testing. Low-brass 7 1/2 shot fired from ten feet away will penetrate 6 inches in ballistic gelatin, which is a fatal strike. As I've said before and will say again, anything out of a 12 gauge barrel will be highly lethal at close range.
6" is a ****-poor penetration distance for any caliber unless it's a brick going that far. The FBI recommends at least 12" of penetration for a defensive round. This helps ensure that the bullet(s) have capability to compensate for bone and clothing which affects penetration distance a lot.

Read this:
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869
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