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Old January 30, 2010, 11:01 PM   #51
arizona98tj
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A couple of months ago (November), I paid $10.99 per box of 25 for S&B "00" 9 pellet buckshot at Cabela's. It was on sale.

I also paid $14.99 per box of 25 for Estate "00" 9 shot buckshot at Cabela's. I had a coupon that I applied that saved me 20% off of that price.

Needless to say, I bought a few cases worth of buckshot. As far as I can tell, these prices are better than what my local Walmart is getting for buckshot.

That being said, I'll practice with birdshot but only put buckshot in the FNH or Benelli when it's for HD.
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Old January 31, 2010, 02:37 AM   #52
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Birdshot. REMEMBER, gelatin does NOT have bones!
Or skin. Skin is remarkably tough. Ask any medical professional who's started an IV, made an incision, or sutured. Or ask any hunter. Getting through the skin is considerably harder than cutting the flesh below it.

The gelatin also isn't wearing a shirt, jeans, and a thick jacket. That will also drastically decrease the penetration of little birdshot pellets. Lick leather jackets and thick cotton duck jackets are pretty common where I live.

Yes, birdshot could work. I used to work as a paramedic and I've seen quite a few times it was effective. I've also seen quite a few times, including to face shots, when it was ineffective.

I won't gamble with the family's life. I can't even think of a logical reason to consider it.
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Old January 31, 2010, 11:17 AM   #53
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walmart has 00bk for $11 (15 rounds)
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Old January 31, 2010, 11:47 AM   #54
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This thread could have been entitled "Lethality of .22 lr" or "Lethality of .25 ACP" Anything beats nothing but there are much better choices. Use what suits you. Out where I live "in the sticks" - there is no 911 so within reason I'll use something more "effective."
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Old February 1, 2010, 09:41 AM   #55
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I think this thread spent maybe 5 posts actually on topic.

If a mod can lock it or close it, I wouldn't mind one bit.
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Old February 1, 2010, 09:51 AM   #56
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well, I see a ton more than a few posts regarding the title of the thread.

"Lethality of Birdshot" is going to bring out plenty of replies stating the less than reliable reputation of fine shot in comparison to buckshot.

But I am surprised the thread lived this long considering the argument that it always creates when anyone asks this question... (at least 10 times per year...)
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Old February 1, 2010, 10:08 AM   #57
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An old LE friend used to keep his duty gun loaded like this. Bird shot, BB's, buck shot, slug. That is pretty much how I keep my HD shot gun loaded.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old February 1, 2010, 09:48 PM   #58
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mods please lock this off-topic thread already

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz88
An old LE friend used to keep his duty gun loaded like this. Birdshot, BB's, buckshot, slug. That is pretty much how I keep my HD shotgun loaded.
That's a very bad idea for a variety of reasons...
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Old February 1, 2010, 10:24 PM   #59
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Sorry I did not think it was that far off topic, considering the other posts. He explained the loading as an escalating level of response to the advance of a BG. It made sense at the time and haven't thought about it much since. Why is it a bad idea? I appreciate your input.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

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Old February 2, 2010, 06:51 AM   #60
Lee Lapin
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Chaz88,

I'll paraphrase Louis Awerbuck on the subject: 'candy cane' loading is a bad idea because 1) under serious pressure, very few shooters can keep up with how many rounds they've fired, and 2) every time you press the trigger of a shotgun, you need to know what's coming out of the muzzle and what that load is likely to do.

Very few gunfights go according to a strict plan, ANYONE's plan. What if the first thing the BG does is duck behind cover substantial enough to stop birdshot, BBs, and buckshot, and you need to have a slug to get through it? How's that 'progressive' magazine load idea working now, with the slug you need buried as deep in the magazine as it can go?

Louis says he's not smart enough to keep up with more than one kind of ammo, and just shoots slugs in a defensive shotgun. I'm not smarter than Louis, but I'm willing to put up with a little more hassle, and keep 00 buckshot in the magazines of defensive shotguns here, and slugs in the Sidesaddle. There's always room left in the magazines for one more round, which means a slug can be loaded first if it's needed first. Worst case, we're no more than one round away from getting a slug in the chamber.

Take ANY good defensive shotgun class, and you will learn the importance of loading the gun, first, last and always. Learn to load the gun on the fly- that's the main difference in gunfighting with a shotgun, and shooting little birdies that don't shoot back.

fwiw,

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Old February 2, 2010, 08:47 AM   #61
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thanks, LL!

Excellent reply, LL. Couldn't have said it better myself


You want your first shot to be the last and only shot. The "escalating scenario" is hollywood rubbish
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Old February 2, 2010, 09:13 AM   #62
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That makes sense. I will never consider myself to old or experienced to rethink a position and learn something new. Now I am wandering why he thought the way he did. This was well over 20 years ago, he was an under sheriff and more of a shoot first and ask question later kind of guy. Not sure if he is still alive but if I get a chance I will ask him about it again.

I have never been in a shotgun class. Might look into it.

Thanks
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

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Old February 2, 2010, 07:05 PM   #63
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a most excellent attribute of pump and semi-auto shotguns is the abilty to top-off the magazine tube with whatever shotshell that's better suited to the specific scenario you're engaged in.

If the BG ducks behind a sofa or wall, pull a slug from the side saddle and stoke the magazine tube with that for maximum barrier/cover penetration. Having a side saddle loaded with different types of shotshells is 1000x more useful and effective than staggering different types of shells in the mag tube. You simply cannot know what's next in the chamber with adenaline pumping and a BG potentially shooting back at you.

Not to mention that if the BG is wearing heavy winter clothing, birdshot will not have the ability to effectively penetrate deep enough for immediate incapacitation. I even have a photo in my files of some gool ol' boy with a load of #4 duck/goose fired directly into his face from 25'-30'. It staggered him, but didn't kill him or preventing him from shooting back, killing his assailant



Please view this excellent defensive shotgun video clip by Thunder Ranch instructor, Clint Smith:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhgwHQCJwWw
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Old February 2, 2010, 07:23 PM   #64
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i paid 10$ for a box of 3.5" 18 pellet 00b 3 days ago,prices may have went up since then
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Old February 3, 2010, 09:00 AM   #65
ETCss Phil McCrackin
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The way I figure it, is that there is no such thing as 1 "right" answer. In a perfect world (tacticaly speaking) I would always use 00B in my shotgun. But since coming out of my bedroom is essentially a funnel (small end = my room) with my kids rooms directly behind almost anything I could be shooting at, there has to be an evaluated trade off. If Johnny Snotgobbler moves while I'm shooting him with 00B, and a few pellets hit my sleeping kids, then what was the point of "protecting" them in the first place? On the flip side though, dove and quail shot is definitly on the "not effective enough" side of the scale. Therefore, in MY specific situation, I have decided to use heavy BB loads in the tube, with slugs and buck standing by if required. No, that's not "optimum", but the risk of overpenitration casualties is a real factor in my home. Again, not the answer for everyone, but there is no answer for everyone.
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Old February 3, 2010, 09:13 AM   #66
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old February 3, 2010, 10:47 AM   #67
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Thanks, I'm actually hoping for good news from the 8 board this cycle, so it's been a while. I have a request in to the mods to change my username to reflect correctly.
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Old February 4, 2010, 03:23 AM   #68
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Rem defense use # 2 hevi-shot

I just saw some Rem, #2hevi-shot boxed and marketed for the self-defense role. Would have bought some, but the price was $12 for five!!!!!!!!!!!

I think they would be grim death in across the bedroom distances.

I could use'em to back up my #5 turkey loads this spring too.
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Old February 4, 2010, 07:54 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger
I just saw some Rem, #2hevi-shot boxed and marketed for the self-defense role. Would have bought some, but the price was $12 for five!!!!!!!!!!!

I think they would be grim death in across the bedroom distances.

I could use'em to back up my #5 turkey loads this spring too.
Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
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Old February 4, 2010, 08:45 AM   #70
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with my kids rooms directly behind almost anything I could be shooting at

Then please permit me to say that your biggest problem is with your home defense plan, and NOT with your choice of loads. You and your gun need to be between any likely threat and your kids- the kids should not be downrange.

fwiw,

lpl
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Old February 4, 2010, 11:03 AM   #71
ETCss Phil McCrackin
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Quote:
Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
Box of Truth (not exactly perfect scientific data, I know) has #4Buck penetrating almost as much as 00B. 6 sheets of drywall (at least 2 rooms over) can still be too much for some situations.

Quote:
Then please permit me to say that your biggest problem is with your home defense plan, and NOT with your choice of loads. You and your gun need to be between any likely threat and your kids- the kids should not be downrange.
While I concur, #1- I can’t exactly move the master bedroom to the other side of the house. And, #2- I can’t exactly afford to move to/build a home PERFECT for defense. Ergo, sometimes you gotta make do with what you got.
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Old February 4, 2010, 03:48 PM   #72
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Quote:
Grim death? Not if the bad guy is wearing heavy winter clothing...
Why not just use buckshot?? It's cheaper and proven effective.

If overpenetration is of concern, then use #4 buckshot
Heavy winter coats are not some kind of magical super kevlar that stops bullets. Take a mannequin out in a field, put a nice coat on it, then blast it from ten feet away with your shotgun. I think you'll be surprised the number of chunks of mannequin you're picking up out of the field.
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Old February 4, 2010, 05:15 PM   #73
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birdshot is for birdies - buckshot for bad guys - repeat

Ya never know what type of heavy winter clothing the intruder/assailant is wearing.

The winters around here are brutally cold, and it's not uncommon to see thugs and gangstas wearing the stereotypical "puffy coat" [LoL] layered underneath with a thick denim or leather jacket, flannel shirt and thermal underwear shirt. That's a lot of stuff to shoot through before passing through skin, muscle and possibly bone before engaging a vital organ.

Birdshot simply doesn't possess the sectional density to penetrate deep enough after engaging obstacles or heavy winter clothing.

Overpenetration issues a concern? Drop to one knee and shoot at an upwards angle.

Using birdshot for self-defense is pure folly - just don't keep insisting others make the same mistake as you
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Old February 4, 2010, 06:34 PM   #74
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I'm not advocating that anyone do anything, I'm emphasizing that we (armed individuals) accept compromises every day based on analysis of actual/perceived threats, available weapons, laws, physical limitations, and surroundings. For instance, I don't think anyone here, if knowingly and unavoidably going in harms way, would elect to take a pistol vice a long gun, yet very few of us carry a long gun to go to the store. Even leaving out the legality question, few would do it. Likewise, of course I would respond to a threat in my home with body armor donned, 00B blazing, and x ring hits if life was perfect, but since it's not, I have analyzed my particular situation and decided on appropriate actions to suit my needs. In my estimation, responding to an unknown possible deadly force situation, after being awakened at 0300, with the lights off and sleep in my eyes is risky enough without having to try and remember to "drop to a knee" for an angle shot or that my daughter's bed is approx 2 ft high and 6 ft long in the corner of the opposite room. In a high confusion dynamic situation I feel that I may only reliably concentrate on target identification and shot placement, therefore I feel that certain compromises to best accomplish the task are acceptable risk.
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Old February 4, 2010, 06:55 PM   #75
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If Plan A involves sending rounds downrange in the direction of your kids, I'd suggest going to Plan B. Since we're playing the "what if" game... what if the shot hits the flimsy interior door and still penetrates, what if the door is open entirely, what if the kid wanders into the hall... I'd rather plan to defend my family with a hand weapon or non-lethal alternative than shoot with my kids downrange. Or just invest enough in hardening your home you'll have time to get in front of the kid's doors before the bad guy gets back there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ADB
Ballistic gel is designed to mimic the penetration of a bullet through human tissue. That means that average penetration depth through gel is specifically calibrated to the average penetration depth through a person, bones or not.
This statement is factually incorrect. Gelatin is equivalent to muscle tissue. Bones affect penetration, especially when the projectile is too light, soft, and slow to break bone. Additionally, heavy clothing will, in fact, significantly affect the penetration of small shot. You are spreading a great deal of misinformation in your posts. I suggest you do some more research before displaying your lack of knowledge any more.
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