The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 26, 2010, 07:34 AM   #26
pvt.Long
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 7, 2009
Posts: 433
Well with birdshot depending on the range there will be more of a spread then buckshot. Yea you get smaller pellets but much more volume of shot in the that will enter the body.
pvt.Long is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 08:30 AM   #27
moccassins
Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Location: Kennesaw, Georgia
Posts: 76
nobody is going to shrug off getting shot with a 12 gauge and if they look like they could, shoot them again
__________________
"Sometimes the will of the people is stronger than the will of their chief" Cochise

"One does not go to the top of a mountain for water or to a white man for the truth" tribal proverb
moccassins is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 09:30 AM   #28
AlKillya
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2010
Location: Hell Paso, Texas
Posts: 14
xm21: I've got a stockpile from various family members who get issued 9mm ammo, I dont think I have to worry about purchasing ammo for a VERY long time =)

Cool pics Moloch, helps out alot.

Grandpatime: I fired some 3 1/2 inch Turkey load last week on a friends shotgun. No idea how effective it is, but it sure as hell had more kick than 3 in 00 buckshot.
AlKillya is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 11:14 AM   #29
Uncle Ben
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 400
As stated earlier, if you're going for a face/head shot, you will easily blind the person, among other things. But aiming for face would affect your accuracy/consistency since it is a much smaller target compared to "center mass".

xm21: For the places that actually have 9mm in stock (definitely NOT WalMart), it is at least $15 for 50 rounds, and that is the Sale price for some no-name brand (at least that I've never heard of).

Winchester white box (100 rounds, regular price) at Big5 sporting goods was $35 when I was there yesterday. What a joke!...not a funny one

Also, since I live in crappy CA, I can't mail order ammo of any type
__________________
Lazy + Complacent = DISARMED
*FIGHT to keep your guns & join the NRA. Contact your representatives about 2A issues at www.capwiz.com/nra/dbq/officials and to be kept up to date on the current issues visit www.nraila.org
Uncle Ben is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 01:40 PM   #30
ADB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 399
Ballistic gel is designed to mimic the penetration of a bullet through human tissue. That means that average penetration depth through gel is specifically calibrated to the average penetration depth through a person, bones or not.
ADB is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 02:01 PM   #31
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 2,001
Here's my question... WHY?

Why use birdshot for defense when it's lethality is, at best, questionable? If you are deathly afraid of overpenetration use #3 or #4 buck at the very least. Birdshot is for birds.

Quote:
"This writer uses buckshot as a home defense shotgun load, with #1 Express (full power) buckshot in the semiautomatic 12 guage. This delivers 16 .30 caliber pellets that strike with optimum penetration for erect bipeds, and with optimum pattern saturation at distances from close range to 15 yards. These pellets will normally stay inside the assailant’s body with a front to back shot, reducing danger to innocent bystanders who might be located unseen behind a violent criminal." ~Massad Ayoob
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Last edited by Tucker 1371; January 26, 2010 at 02:13 PM.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 03:29 PM   #32
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 5,950
Another why in the HE** would you even consider birdshot unless it just happens to be all you have. Sure it might work but there are absolutely no advantages to using it. There are no disadvantages to using buckshot. I'm not buying the over penetration BS for a second. Buckshot is already desinged to limit overpenetration and to prevent stray rounds from being dangerous down range.
jmr40 is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 03:40 PM   #33
langenc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 19, 2007
Location: Montmorency Co, MI
Posts: 1,187
What good is bird/buckshot in a safe?? I cant understand.
langenc is offline  
Old January 26, 2010, 04:44 PM   #34
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Let's also remember, there IS a difference between a target load of #9s and a heavy goose or turkey load. If all you have is a turkey load, I doubt, at HD distances, you'll have too much to worry about
oneounceload is offline  
Old January 27, 2010, 12:44 AM   #35
Bassopotamus
Junior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: Waterloo IA
Posts: 4
I would think anything would hurt at close range, but I doubt birdshot would incapacitate reliably.

Not a human like target, but today I was shooting at plastic pop bottles stuck in the snow with 7 1/2 shot ( federal bulk from walmart) at about 35 yards (turkey choke). I thought I was just a lousy shot because nothing seemed to be happening downrange. Walked down to check it out, and all the bottles were hit, and had shot in them that penetrated one wall of the bottle, but not the other. At similar range, 22s are all through and throughs. I suppose at personal defense distances, they would hit harder, but shooting pop bottles at 10 feet hust isn't that interesting
Bassopotamus is offline  
Old January 27, 2010, 01:48 AM   #36
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 7,091
Fill that milk jug with water, and shoot it at 10 feet. Tell us what you think then.
__________________
Bill DeShivs
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old January 27, 2010, 08:49 PM   #37
Dave McC
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 13, 1999
Location: Columbia, Md, USA
Posts: 8,812
Here we go again....

Birdshot will work if you're close enough.

So will buck.

Close enough with birdshot,even lead 2s, is measured best in feet.

With buck, it's yards. Even 4 buck, the shrimp of the clan, is quite lethal at 25 yards.

Since we cannot predict the distance or conditions of our next firefight, it's best to prepare for the worst case scenario, which is why some of us have guns anyway.

Load with a buck load that YOU have patterned in YOUR shotgun and choke. And practice,practice,practice......
Dave McC is offline  
Old January 27, 2010, 08:56 PM   #38
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
Well with birdshot depending on the range there will be more of a spread then buckshot
That has nothing to do with the other - "spread", or more correctly, "pattern", has nothing to do with what shot size is being used, just as barrel length has nothing to do with effective range................
oneounceload is offline  
Old January 27, 2010, 11:39 PM   #39
AlKillya
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2010
Location: Hell Paso, Texas
Posts: 14
No offense to anyone here is intended, all the information and opinions are extremely useful, and I'm sure will help alot of people who stumble on this thread. And have helped me.
However, we have gone off topic and back to the very common debate of Birdshot vs. Buckshot. Test all you want, but the irrefutable truth is BUCKSHOT IS KILLING POWER. As quoted, "Birdshot is for little birdies, and Buck shot is for large game"

Now, go back to the first page and please take a gander at the first post.

So far, one of the best replies dealing with either the topic's problem, of another idea I may not have thought of was presented by Rampant Colt:
"You may practice using 3 dram equivalent birdshot which are considered heavy trap/skeet loads. For home and defense scenarios use reduced recoil 00 and 000 buckshot. Recoil is approximately the same as the 3 dram trap/skeet loads"

Another suggestion was that Turkey load, might be a good middle ground between price and lethality.
AlKillya is offline  
Old January 28, 2010, 12:46 AM   #40
troy_mclure
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2008
Location: gulf of mexico
Posts: 2,716
im always highly amused by some of these threads.

when the bird shot question comes up theres always a few that say "bird shot is only good for a few feet", then go on to talk about how buck is "good for .... yards".

no go to the tactics/training section, and the same people will be like "if the distance is .... yards you shouldn't shoot cause they are not a threat, and you will go to jail".

__________________
There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
troy_mclure is offline  
Old January 28, 2010, 01:20 AM   #41
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,339
Quote:
"if the distance is .... yards you shouldn't shoot cause they are not a threat, and you will go to jail".
Assuming your opponent is not using birdshot in HIS shotgun, he's clearly a threat from ".... yards".
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old January 28, 2010, 02:18 AM   #42
noyes
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2008
Posts: 1,032
bird shot HD shotgun

Shoot
Charge
Stab






Fun practice..... shot Clay birdies , hand thrower , machine . See how fast you can knock them out of the air.

Last edited by noyes; January 30, 2010 at 08:18 PM.
noyes is offline  
Old January 28, 2010, 02:37 AM   #43
TxGun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2008
Location: Texas Hill Country ranch
Posts: 437
Dang this arguement gets old!

Can birdshot work (stop the aggression) at extremely close "in the same room" range? Yes, probably.

Is a heavy turkey/duck load better (for defence) than a light upland load? Yes, definitely.

Is buckshot always a much more reliable stopper than either of the above? Of course it is.

Anything else defies common sense.
TxGun is offline  
Old January 29, 2010, 01:52 PM   #44
Uncle Ben
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2008
Location: Southern California
Posts: 400
"TxGun": I think you should save that response and copy/paste it when the discussion comes up each time....to the point, clear, consice, and accurate - IMO
Uncle Ben is offline  
Old January 29, 2010, 09:29 PM   #45
AlKillya
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2010
Location: Hell Paso, Texas
Posts: 14
We have gone off topic and back to the very common debate of Birdshot vs. Buckshot. Test all you want, but the irrefutable truth is BUCKSHOT IS KILLING POWER. As quoted, "Birdshot is for little birdies, and Buck shot is for large game"

Now, go back to the first page and please take a gander at the first post.
AlKillya is offline  
Old January 30, 2010, 10:57 AM   #46
ZeroJunk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 14, 2006
Location: Browns Summit NC
Posts: 2,483
I can't imagine what difference it would make if you practiced with No.9's or 000 at 20 feet. Tell me.
ZeroJunk is offline  
Old January 30, 2010, 05:56 PM   #47
Jeremiah/Az
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2009
Location: Az.
Posts: 509
Just read a story of a home invasion here in Phoenix, where the invader was shot in the stomach with bird shot. It didn't say what size, but it killed him. Even bird shot at across the room distance is one big hunk of lead. It wouldn't be my choice, but better than nothing!
Jeremiah/Az is offline  
Old January 30, 2010, 06:24 PM   #48
Rampant_Colt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2006
Location: Parts Unknown
Posts: 1,478
The OP [AlKillya] is aware that birdshot is for birdies; he was looking for a shotshell with similar recoil characteristics as reduced recoil buckshot but less expensive to practice with...RIF

Reduced recoil buckshot is like having your cake and eating it, too
__________________
member of an elite paramilitary organization: Eagle Scouts
Rampant_Colt is offline  
Old January 30, 2010, 06:25 PM   #49
oneounceload
Junior member
 
Join Date: April 18, 2008
Location: N. Central Florida
Posts: 8,518
Quote:
Even bird shot at across the room distance is one big hunk of lead.
Actually, it ISN'T one big chunk of lead - it is a lot of small pellets
oneounceload is offline  
Old January 30, 2010, 07:16 PM   #50
ADB
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 399
Quote:
Actually, it ISN'T one big chunk of lead - it is a lot of small pellets
What he means is that at home defense ranges, no shotshell is going to show very much pattern, maybe a few inches on longer shots. So in essence no matter whether you're talking 000, #6, or slugs, you're talking about a large amount of lead entering the body almost as a single mass. Only after it hits does it begin to spread.
ADB is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13905 seconds with 7 queries