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Old January 25, 2010, 11:35 AM   #1
GoBucks
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A reason to get more training and carry with one in the pipe.

Last Friday I was walking my dog in our neighborhood. As I approached the end of the street I noticed two rottweilers between two houses. They barked, but it appeared they were in a fenced backed yard. I then noticed that one of the dogs was outside the fence. It also appeared that the dog had on a red invisible fence type collar. (I have that system - so I thought no problem) I decided to turn around at that point and not go any closer to that yard. At that moment the dog that was loose started approaching quickly and came into the street. I stood still and faced the dog. My dog rolled over in a submissive position and the Rott came over without hesitation and grabed him by the throat. I reached down and pulled the Rott off but it was maintaining an aggressive stance. At that point a utility guy came out with some pepper spray and sprayed the dog.

I was carrying at the time - under a heavy coat - without one in the tube.
I would have had to drop the leash to get my gun out and then would have had to rack the slide which would have taken more time. If the other guy had not sprayed the dog - those seconds of delay could have resulted in the death of my dog or me being attacked by the dog.

Additionally, it is a reason to get additional training because your mind really does go blank in those situations without proper training.

Bottom line: Training, training, training and you don't have time to rack the slide in a situation that happens without warning.
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Old January 25, 2010, 11:45 AM   #2
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Old January 25, 2010, 12:23 PM   #3
Diamond LawDawg
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Practice

It will make you feel more comfortable..why carry a unloaded gun??? A baseball bat is so much more effective. Common sense..you were born with what you have,,you can not learn it,buyit or drink it from a soda can.
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Old January 25, 2010, 02:40 PM   #4
Elvishead
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It also goes to show you have easy access to your loaded gun.

I think one of the main things to be taught is to keep your finger off the trigger to avoid an accidental discharge. I practice that religiously.
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Old January 25, 2010, 02:56 PM   #5
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Glad it turned out okay. People should be more responsible when it comes to their pets.

I have OC spray with me virtually all the time, as I do not yet have my CCP (I am getting it next month).

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Old January 25, 2010, 03:04 PM   #6
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I think one of the main things to be taught is to keep your finger off the trigger to avoid an accidental discharge. I practice that religiously.
NEGLIGENT! The word is NEGLIGENT!
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Old January 25, 2010, 04:03 PM   #7
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If/when I conceal carry - I keep a round chambered. However, for at home, I choose not to keep one in the chamber. I have a kid, and it's a trade-off with keeping my one loaded firearm not locked up.
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Old January 25, 2010, 05:46 PM   #8
45Gunner
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Kids present a whole unique set of different problems. Kids aside, if you're carrying, it should always be condition one.

Stand in front of a mirror and have a clock within view. Holster your gun and when the second hand hits twelve, draw, rack, and pull the trigger. How long did it take. And to be fair, you should wear the coat over your gun as would outside.

Now, have your gun condition one, do the same exercise and notice the difference in time. Those seconds could be life or death.

I know it is understood, but for those that like to jump on every little thing, please don't do this with live ammo. Use snap caps.
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Old January 25, 2010, 06:01 PM   #9
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NEGLIGENT! The word is NEGLIGENT!
Perhaps, but it seems like a PC term that benefits lawyers more so than gun owners who already know that accidents are usually cause by negligence.

Why not do away with "Accidental" with re: to all accidents and substitute negligence. Certainly would work to the benefit of all those civil attorneys who seem to be rich enough already. I know one who gets $600 haircuts when he's not running for the Presidency, taling about family values, or visiting his mistress.

OK, I've been hitting the Red Bull again and feel revved up.
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Old January 25, 2010, 06:02 PM   #10
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NEGLIGENT! The word is NEGLIGENT!
Perhaps, but it seems like a PC term that benefits lawyers more so than gun owners who already know that accidents are usually cause by negligence.

Why not do away with "Accidental" with re: to all accidents and substitute negligence. Certainly would work to the benefit of all those civil attorneys who seem to be rich enough already. I know one who gets $600 haircuts-- when he's not running for the Presidency, lecturing about family values, or visiting his mistress.

OK, I've been hitting the Red Bull again and feel revved up.

Quote:
Bottom line: Training, training, training and you don't have time to rack the slide in a situation that happens without warning.
Yes, and good training includes carrying one in the pipe.
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Old January 25, 2010, 07:33 PM   #11
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For dogs, gun is always last resort for life/death situation. Carry pepper spray for them. The dog owner is negligent, however you'd have been sued and lost if you'd killed the dog without the dog seriously injuring you or your dog.

Additionally, you're lucky the dog was not trained. None of my dogs are dog aggressive or allowed in such horrible retention (those buried electric fences only work with low drive, weak dogs), however had there been an instance where one of my dogs had a grip on something and you (not as its owner/handler) grabbed it, you would've been considered the threat and would have been neutralized. Dumb luck ruled your day. Sorry if you read this as a butt chewing (it's not), but people really need to learn more about dealing with herding/protection type breeds.
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Old January 25, 2010, 08:38 PM   #12
Otis311
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what would happen if you kicked that dog in the ribs with some steel toes? I'm talking lifting it off the ground type punt.

That is a serious question because that would probably be my first line of defense with a .38 being the last.
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Old January 25, 2010, 08:38 PM   #13
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Carry pepper spray for them. The dog owner is negligent, however you'd have been sued and lost if you'd killed the dog without the dog seriously injuring you or your dog.
I am sorry, but I am not carrying pepper spray for dogs, a taser for the drunks, etc. I'll take the day in court for protecting my dogs any day.
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Old January 25, 2010, 09:04 PM   #14
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I have always carried with one in the chamber. I know some think it not necessary or unsafe but you may not have time to chamber a round.
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Old January 25, 2010, 09:09 PM   #15
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In Michigan, if you kill a loose dog (one that has left its owners property) then its owner cannot hold you responsible for what happens to it. I also have personal exp on property that I was invited onto and the dog attacked. Had to use a screwdriver thru its skull to get it off me.

I agree with the fact that one cannot carry multiple weapons for different scenarios, pepper spray, clubs, knives, guns, etc. I would get confused on which weapon was in which pocket lol
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Old January 25, 2010, 09:28 PM   #16
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Not to pick a fight, but in Georgia it is up to the owner to have the dog on a leash or properly restrained at all times. The owner of the aggressive dog should have trained his dog better.

If you have a large herding/protection dog, it is your responsibility to learn to handle and control it. If you cannot keep an aggressive dog on your property, and it attacks someone else then the dog is fair game. If I have to choose between myself being injured, or stopping the threat especially if it is an aggressive dog, then I would take my chances with shooting the dog. (by the way I love dogs, just not mean ones)

People who buy large dogs, without being able to control them, are just asking for trouble when the dog attacks either another dog or someone. What if the dog had attacked a child?

I dont want to shoot any of God's creatures, unless I have too, but big dogs can be a much more dangerous weapon than a loaded gun and should be handled with just as much respect as one handles a firearm.

A person's life is more important than a dogs. If a dog has to be stopped to protect a person then so be it.
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Last edited by pacerdude; January 26, 2010 at 06:43 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old January 25, 2010, 09:34 PM   #17
DasFriek
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In my ccw training class the instructor did a scenario where a student had to pick up a gun off a table and fire a round at a target before another person could run 30 feet to simulate just how long it takes to draw and aim a weapon on a charging assailant.
The runner hit the finish line before the shot was fired and the runner was 60+ years old. To take the time to rack the gun also you would be better off taking off running than add racking the slide and drawing the gun also just to fire it.

With training im sure its not such a big issue as id better a trained LEO could get the shot off with his Glock at the ready.

Luckily at home i have no kids that live here with me, But my 13 year old daughter visits but the guns get put up and one stays on my side since i cant reach them as quickly.
I know for a fact she wouldn't touch them if l did leave them out, But i dont like those odds.
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Old January 26, 2010, 10:50 AM   #18
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Quote:
For dogs, gun is always last resort for life/death situation. Carry pepper spray for them. The dog owner is negligent, however you'd have been sued and lost if you'd killed the dog without the dog seriously injuring you or your dog.

Additionally, you're lucky the dog was not trained. None of my dogs are dog aggressive or allowed in such horrible retention (those buried electric fences only work with low drive, weak dogs), however had there been an instance where one of my dogs had a grip on something and you (not as its owner/handler) grabbed it, you would've been considered the threat and would have been neutralized. Dumb luck ruled your day. Sorry if you read this as a butt chewing (it's not), but people really need to learn more about dealing with herding/protection type breeds.
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When a "herding/protection type breed" has the teeth to attack (ability), has threatened to attack (intent), and has come off its property to assault us (opportunity), . . . however many 240 grain .45ACP's it will take to put it down is exactly what it will get, . . . then, . . . there, . . . with no thought of hesitation.

There is no protection for the owner in the state of Ohio for anyone who cannot maintain their animal correctly. This is simply a case of self defense, plain, simple, . . . kind of a "dead dog" scenario.

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Old January 26, 2010, 04:00 PM   #19
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I have serious doubts whether use of a firearm to prevent injury or death to your dog would be legally sanctioned. Most states do not even justify lethal force on a human, for property crimes. Sorry folks, i love my dogs too, but they aren't human (even if they think they are), they're just property in the eyes of the law. I could see you being charged for destruction of property, or unlawful discharge of a firearm, reckless endangerment, hmmm. I guess it comes back to knowing the laws in your jurisdiction.

If the dog is attacking a human, of course lethal force can be justified (just don't shoot the human, and as long as the dog is somewhat larger than a Chihuahua).
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Old January 26, 2010, 04:48 PM   #20
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I agree with Daugherty16, you must be very aware of your local laws with regard to using a firearm to defend an animal. In an urban setting, there may be less risk to society if your dog is sacrificed rather than releasing one or more rounds from a gun. In rural settings, there may be specific laws allowing you dispatch animals that attack yours.

Don't assume the law treats your defense of a dog the same as it would if you were defending a person being attacked by a dog.

Simple solution is to keep spray attached to the leash, or carry a collapsible baton (where legal).
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Old January 26, 2010, 05:49 PM   #21
Jimtl
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A good reminder why I need to pick up some pepper spray! I'd rather not resort to shooting a dog (or anthing else). I'm going to look online right now.
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Old January 27, 2010, 06:22 AM   #22
Hook686
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January 25, 2010, 06:33 PM #11 MikeRussell wrote:

Quote:

For dogs, gun is always last resort for life/death situation. Carry pepper spray for them. The dog owner is negligent, however you'd have been sued and lost if you'd killed the dog without the dog seriously injuring you or your dog.

Additionally, you're lucky the dog was not trained. None of my dogs are dog aggressive or allowed in such horrible retention (those buried electric fences only work with low drive, weak dogs), however had there been an instance where one of my dogs had a grip on something and you (not as its owner/handler) grabbed it, you would've been considered the threat and would have been neutralized. Dumb luck ruled your day. Sorry if you read this as a butt chewing (it's not), but people really need to learn more about dealing with herding/protection type breeds.
Mike let me ask a question ... if a disabled person is walking his Service dog, and a large dog on the loose comes charging up, and the owner would receive serious injury, or even death, by the large dog jumping up on him/knocking him over/or seriously injuring, or killing the Service dog, do you think the owner would be justified in shooting the charging large breed dog, even if it is a 'Herding/protection type breed' ?
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Old January 27, 2010, 08:18 AM   #23
GUNSITE
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Quote...

Last Friday I was walking my dog in our neighborhood. As I approached the end of the street I noticed two rottweilers between two houses. They barked, but it appeared they were in a fenced backed yard. I then noticed that one of the dogs was outside the fence. It also appeared that the dog had on a red invisible fence type collar. (I have that system - so I thought no problem) I decided to turn around at that point and not go any closer to that yard. At that moment the dog that was loose started approaching quickly and came into the street. I stood still and faced the dog. My dog rolled over in a submissive position and the Rott came over without hesitation and grabed him by the throat. I reached down and pulled the Rott off but it was maintaining an aggressive stance. At that point a utility guy came out with some pepper spray and sprayed the dog.

I was carrying at the time - under a heavy coat - without one in the tube.
I would have had to drop the leash to get my gun out and then would have had to rack the slide which would have taken more time. If the other guy had not sprayed the dog - those seconds of delay could have resulted in the death of my dog or me being attacked by the dog.

Additionally, it is a reason to get additional training because your mind really does go blank in those situations without proper training.

Bottom line: Training, training, training and you don't have time to rack the slide in a situation that happens without warning.
End Quote
*************

I don't advocate carrying a non-chambered weapon... Its not for everyone, advance training, or a higher level of training will incorporate one hand load and rack tactics, making your situation just a tactical adjustment with fluid motion.

Spend a couple a days of training at a outside range with your weak arm tide/cuffed to your belt behind your back while drawing, moving, shooting, and reloading.... with a qualified knowledgeable instructor.

In your particular situation as you describe, i rather have an umbrella than a gun, i've seen trained police/attack dogs not able to penetrate, spooked, and stopped by a open umbrella, its legal to carry, and no legalities when deployed and/or if the trigger is pulled.... lol... but true.
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Old January 27, 2010, 11:31 AM   #24
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Dogs are one of the few cases where firearms are often sub-optimal for self defense. Very small target, moving fast, and (depending on breed) very difficult to put down. I'd wait til the aggressive dog was actively chewing on my dog before firing a (contact) shot. Of course I don't plan on owning small fragile dogs that can be easily killed in one bite so ymmv. I'd say any dog that is attacking your dog is a threat to you as well. Of course depending on the size of the dog there may be less liability incurring ways to deal with it.
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Old January 27, 2010, 03:04 PM   #25
HighStrung
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I'd wait til the aggressive dog was actively chewing on my dog before firing a (contact) shot.
Thank you for even considering this option. I am a Rottweiler owner and for that matter I'm a very responsible one. We've been through several training/obedience classes. That being said, my 5 yrd old, 130lb female is very happy to see virtually anyone and is very friendly, unless you happen to walk in my house without being accompanied by myself or my wife. Either way, there have been two occasions where we were out for a walk and she slipped her leash. On both of those occasions she took off running towards a dog on the other side of the street (It's kinda sad, everyone see's you with a Rottie and they cross the street before passing you). One of the times the other person and their dog simply stopped, Sadie ran up to them wanting to play, they rolled around for a few minutes and we went our separate ways. The other time, the owner went into panic mode and began trying to run backwards dragging the dog by the neck. Their dog sensed danger (because of the actions of the owner) and actually attacked my dog once they met. My dog backed up, turned around a few times confused, then sat down waiting for me to get there. In both instances, I was trotting to catch up to my dog while hollering to the other owner that my dog was nice and not to worry. Moral of the story, don't judge a dog by it's breed. Okay, sorry for the rant but I have issues with people who judge breeds. I've seen first hand what a chiwawa (class pet) can do to a 5 yr old little girl (57 stiches in her face and nerve damage for life). In your instance, there was no other owner around, and you said that the rottie began chewing on the neck of your dog, I'd have shot it. No different that if my dog attacked another dog, I'll shoot my own right then and there.
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