5.45x39 vs. 5.56x45

highcaliberprovider · January 24, 2010, 09:54 AM

I have read a few threads in these forums discussing acceptable ammunition for indoor firing ranges. In the area I live in there are no indoor ranges (for civilian use) that allow rifles period. However, I've seen many posts stating that the individual's frequented range does not allow 7.62x39. So, they ask about acceptable Kalashnikov style rifles. (Yes, I know you can get an AK in 5.56, that's not what I'm asking.) So, I recommended the AK-74, only to be told that the 5.45x39 is also not allowed.
It has been my experience that the 5.45x39 packs less of a punch than the 5.56X45 (5.56 nato, .223 rem, whatever your preferred nomenclature). So then, why is it that the 5.56 is allowed and the 5.45 is not? Does it have anything to do with the greater tumble on the 5.45?

Moloch · January 24, 2010, 10:02 AM

I guess most 5.45x39 has a steel core which can damage your indoor shooting range by damaging the bullet backstop!

NSO_w/_SIG · January 24, 2010, 10:18 AM

I don't know the answer but why would a range care that the 5.45 yaws more in flesh when you are shooting paper targets?

noyes · January 24, 2010, 10:18 AM

penetration maybe ?

Tman used his Romanian SAR2, in 5.45 X 39 with Wolf ammo to shoot the box.
It went through all 12 boards, busted the water jug, but bounced off the wood in front of the bricks.

then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try.
They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds.
This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

highcaliberprovider · January 24, 2010, 10:21 AM

I've tested both in ballistics gel (cheap wolf ammo). The 5.45 does seem to have slightly more penetration, but, not so much that I think it would matter much to a bullet stop.

rbernie · January 24, 2010, 11:29 AM

Quote:

why is it that the 5.56 is allowed and the 5.45 is not

Outside of the most obvious answer (blatant ethnocentrism) or the second most likely answer (resellability of spent casings), it likely has to do with the mo' frangible nature of most 223/5.56 rounds.

Beachhead123 · January 24, 2010, 01:53 PM

The indoor range near me bans 5.45 unless it's Hollow Point. It's a pain in the ass to try to get 5.45 hollowpoint sometimes you find it online, sometimes you don't. And usually if you find it it's not the cheapest you can get.

Dfariswheel · January 24, 2010, 09:27 PM

The reason the 5.45x39 is often banned is because the military surplus steel core ammo can damage backstops and the owners can't be sure of what a shooter is using.

While the steel core is made of mild steel and is not armor piercing, it does have at least some armor piercing ability.
Here's a sectioned military 7N6-PS bullet with the steel core.

**Bud Helms** · January 25, 2010, 06:23 AM

Greater tumble?

RT · January 25, 2010, 06:53 AM

I don't know if this is true, but one indoor range owner told me he banned steel core ammo because it would spark upon impacting concrete potentially creating a fire hazard.....

highcaliberprovider · January 25, 2010, 11:31 AM

Quote:

The reason the 5.45x39 is often banned is because the military surplus steel core ammo can damage backstops and the owners can't be sure of what a shooter is using.

Don't 5.56 military surplus also have steel cores? How can the range master be sure what they are shooting?

rbernie · January 25, 2010, 01:13 PM

IIRC, M855 5.56NATO round has a small steel penetrator in a lead core. That small penetrator would not likely look/behave like the Russian steel-core 5.45x39....

TheManHimself · January 25, 2010, 09:14 PM

If M855 is allowed but combloc intermediate cartridges aren't, it's because the range can't sell steel cases to reloaders. That's the reason, period. The SS109 projectile is specifically designed for penetration of light cover. The mild steel core in the combloc surplus is intended to reduce cost and accelerate yaw in flesh. M855 would easily punch through any backstop that would be penetrated by combloc surplus 5.45x39mm.

stuffaknuckle · January 26, 2010, 03:34 AM

Ok, Im confused. If ranges are going by penetration factor then why not the 7.62X39? If I remember right the 5.56x45 has more FPS than a 7.62X39 so wouldnt it be not as deadly?

If it is the fact that the ranges cant sell steel cases to reloders then why not again the 7.62X39? They make those in brass cases.

five40five · January 26, 2010, 10:14 AM

Because there is alot of 7.62x39 surplus out there with steel cases,they don't want you to use what they don't sell.Most sell their own reloads and don't sell bulk surplus military ammo.

allons · January 26, 2010, 10:34 AM

Just to add to what TheManHimself said, It seems like ANY standard 5.56 FMJ round will penetrate steel better than the warsaw pact surplus 5.45 round.

This plate was hit with a variety of 5.56 FMJ, no AP or green tip, just plain old LC72, wolf & malaysian. All the 5.45 was Bulgarian military surplus. That air gap in the nose really cuts down on penetration in hard targets.

If I owned the backstop I'd rather have people use the 5.45, unless as stated before, I wanted the brass for resale.

January 24, 2010, 09:54 AM	#1
highcaliberprovider Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 143	5.45x39 vs. 5.56x45 I have read a few threads in these forums discussing acceptable ammunition for indoor firing ranges. In the area I live in there are no indoor ranges (for civilian use) that allow rifles period. However, I've seen many posts stating that the individual's frequented range does not allow 7.62x39. So, they ask about acceptable Kalashnikov style rifles. (Yes, I know you can get an AK in 5.56, that's not what I'm asking.) So, I recommended the AK-74, only to be told that the 5.45x39 is also not allowed. It has been my experience that the 5.45x39 packs less of a punch than the 5.56X45 (5.56 nato, .223 rem, whatever your preferred nomenclature). So then, why is it that the 5.56 is allowed and the 5.45 is not? Does it have anything to do with the greater tumble on the 5.45? __________________ "Those who hammer their guns into plow shears will become subject to those who do not."

January 24, 2010, 10:21 AM	#5
highcaliberprovider Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2010 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 143	I've tested both in ballistics gel (cheap wolf ammo). The 5.45 does seem to have slightly more penetration, but, not so much that I think it would matter much to a bullet stop. __________________ "Those who hammer their guns into plow shears will become subject to those who do not."

January 25, 2010, 06:23 AM	#9
Bud Helms Staff Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 12,907	Greater tumble? __________________ "The irony of the Information Age is that it has given new respectability to uninformed opinion." - John Lawton, speaking to the American Association of Broadcast Journalists in 1995

January 25, 2010, 01:13 PM	#12
rbernie Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Location: Plain Ol', TX Posts: 713	IIRC, M855 5.56NATO round has a small steel penetrator in a lead core. That small penetrator would not likely look/behave like the Russian steel-core 5.45x39.... __________________ -A conclusion is not a destination, it's simply a convenient place to stop thinking.- -Reading a thing doesn't automatically make it so; repeating it doesn't necessarily make it any truer.- -Every Texan should be a member of the Texas State Rifle Association.

January 26, 2010, 10:14 AM	#15
five40five Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Location: SW Florida Posts: 25	Because there is alot of 7.62x39 surplus out there with steel cases,they don't want you to use what they don't sell.Most sell their own reloads and don't sell bulk surplus military ammo. __________________ "A sword is never a killer,it is a tool in the killer's hand" Senaca

January 24, 2010, 10:02 AM	#2
Moloch Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Posts: 1,277	I guess most 5.45x39 has a steel core which can damage your indoor shooting range by damaging the bullet backstop!

January 24, 2010, 10:18 AM	#3
NSO_w/_SIG Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2004 Posts: 553	I don't know the answer but why would a range care that the 5.45 yaws more in flesh when you are shooting paper targets?

January 24, 2010, 10:18 AM	#4
noyes Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2008 Posts: 1,032	penetration maybe ? Tman used his Romanian SAR2, in 5.45 X 39 with Wolf ammo to shoot the box. It went through all 12 boards, busted the water jug, but bounced off the wood in front of the bricks. then tried a frangible .223 that Hardshell sent me to try. They were Federal 50 grain, Frangible rounds. This round went through 8 boards and bounced off the 9th board. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

January 24, 2010, 01:53 PM	#7
Beachhead123 Junior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 5	The indoor range near me bans 5.45 unless it's Hollow Point. It's a pain in the ass to try to get 5.45 hollowpoint sometimes you find it online, sometimes you don't. And usually if you find it it's not the cheapest you can get.

January 24, 2010, 09:27 PM	#8
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 6,572	The reason the 5.45x39 is often banned is because the military surplus steel core ammo can damage backstops and the owners can't be sure of what a shooter is using. While the steel core is made of mild steel and is not armor piercing, it does have at least some armor piercing ability. Here's a sectioned military 7N6-PS bullet with the steel core.

January 25, 2010, 06:53 AM	#10
RT Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 2,188	I don't know if this is true, but one indoor range owner told me he banned steel core ammo because it would spark upon impacting concrete potentially creating a fire hazard.....

January 25, 2010, 09:14 PM	#13
TheManHimself Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2008 Posts: 731	If M855 is allowed but combloc intermediate cartridges aren't, it's because the range can't sell steel cases to reloaders. That's the reason, period. The SS109 projectile is specifically designed for penetration of light cover. The mild steel core in the combloc surplus is intended to reduce cost and accelerate yaw in flesh. M855 would easily punch through any backstop that would be penetrated by combloc surplus 5.45x39mm.

January 26, 2010, 03:34 AM	#14
stuffaknuckle Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2010 Posts: 132	Ok, Im confused. If ranges are going by penetration factor then why not the 7.62X39? If I remember right the 5.56x45 has more FPS than a 7.62X39 so wouldnt it be not as deadly? If it is the fact that the ranges cant sell steel cases to reloders then why not again the 7.62X39? They make those in brass cases.

January 26, 2010, 10:34 AM	#16
allons Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: America's Heartland Posts: 69	Just to add to what TheManHimself said, It seems like ANY standard 5.56 FMJ round will penetrate steel better than the warsaw pact surplus 5.45 round. This plate was hit with a variety of 5.56 FMJ, no AP or green tip, just plain old LC72, wolf & malaysian. All the 5.45 was Bulgarian military surplus. That air gap in the nose really cuts down on penetration in hard targets. If I owned the backstop I'd rather have people use the 5.45, unless as stated before, I wanted the brass for resale.