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Old January 18, 2010, 06:13 PM   #1
langoley
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BATF says no private sales at Austin show

I found this on Prison planet today!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/batf-not...-in-texas.html
This is not a drive-by,it a real concern to our SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS! IF THE BATF and Austin PD can just post a letter and say you can't sell privately inside or in the parking lot,what is next??This is a real concern to our rights across the board,what is next,free speech?

Last edited by langoley; January 18, 2010 at 07:41 PM.
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Old January 18, 2010, 06:17 PM   #2
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That's really too bad. The parking lot has better deals.
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Old January 18, 2010, 06:17 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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You better add some commentary and/or direction to this topic or it's a "Drive-By" and will be closed in short order.
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Old January 18, 2010, 06:30 PM   #4
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Whiskey Tango Foxtrot... Over! Sounds like just the "advisement" I would blatantly ignore and thumb my nose at the officials as I do!!! No one tells me I cannot engage in activity that is within the law and expect me to obey like an organ grinder monkey! If they want me to comply... MAKE IT A FREAKING LAW!!! Otherwise KMA-10-4!
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Old January 18, 2010, 06:40 PM   #5
Bartholomew Roberts
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OK, we have Alex Jones and PrisonPlanet.com - not always the best source of information I've found.

We have a bright gold paper that could have been printed by anyone that says "at the direction of the Austin Police Department and the BATF, you are asked to comply with the following:"

Putting aside for a moment that I haven't ever seen any BATF or Austin PD requests on bright gold paper in 48pt Times New Roman sans letterhead or anything else and so the origin of the request seems dubious, it seems that even if true, all that was asked was that attendees comply with these requests.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:39 PM   #6
Tuzo
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From the Texas State Rifle Association website:

Quote:
Austin Gun Shows Under Attack?

It has been reported to TSRA that the Austin Police Department in cooperation with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives is apparently trying to limit or eliminate gun shows in Austin. This action is based upon alleged criminal nusance (sic) abatement issues related to the property on which the gun show is held. Here is a link to the Texas Gun Shows website setting forth a policy that allows only federal firearms licensees (FFL) to "set up and sell firearms." It is also reported that individual attendees will not be able to sell firearms without having to go through an FFL.

TSRA continues to research and investigate this matter.

Updated January 18, 2010 at 3:10pm.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:48 PM   #7
langoley
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I also wanted to wait to post more until I got off the phone.I called my better half's father just north of austin(Walburg),he and a friend were at the show and the letter was posted AND passed out to customers.He saw 1 guy doing a "deal" in the parking lot and was being talked to by police,he didn't stick around to see the outcome.
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Old January 18, 2010, 07:51 PM   #8
dhhardw
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Dump Austin Gun Show

They don't have the right to "limit" gun sales. If a police officer arrested you, what would they charge you with? Disregarding a note? Contempt of cop? Police departments enforce the law, not make the law. If a particular law does not exist, you can't be prosecuted for violating it.

If this really happened, which may be doubtful, the solution is simple. There is a gun show in Texas every single weekend (somewhere) so just avoid Austin. If they rent a big hall, and nobody shows up, they will lose lots of $$$$.
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Old January 18, 2010, 09:28 PM   #9
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Asked to comply....

If there was any legal penalties that they had the power to enforce, then it would read "required to comply".

If this is the policy of the venue owner, or the show promoter, then your choice is voluntarily comply, or avoid the show. But if you avoid the show...
Quote:
apparently trying to limit or eliminate gun shows in Austin.
, then aren't they getting what they want, anyway?

As a private gun owner, the laws basically only cover what you may not do. Therefore, unless specifically prohibited, it must be allowed. The problem comes when enforcement authorities don't see things that way.

You may be completely, legally in the right, but to prove it, you are going to wind up in court, with all the attendant hassles.

AND, while you may be vindicated, you can still be found guilty of "contempt of cop". In many places, failing to obey the commands of a police officer (even if it later proven he had no legal authority to issue them) can be a crime.
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Old January 18, 2010, 09:38 PM   #10
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If the owner of the venue made this a requirement for using the property and you did not comply you could be arrested for trespassing. But even then probably only if you were asked to leave and refused.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

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Old January 18, 2010, 09:52 PM   #11
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Quote:
you are going to wind up in court, with all the attendant hassles.
I tend to think you need to pick your battles. I also think at times you need to asert you rights and deal with the hassles. Otherwise rights are eroded with implied consent.

For example have you ever refused a request from LE to search your car or belongings, even if you don't have anything to hide? Do you even know you have the right to refuse? Most of the time if it is a request it because no probable cause exists. But with your consent you have given up your 4th amendment rights.

So say in this hypothetical situation your son borrowed the car, of course you "know" he would not drink and drive, and left an open container under the seat. You just volunteered to take the blame.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old January 18, 2010, 10:24 PM   #12
geojap
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A small firestorm erupted in the gun-owner community in Texas this past weekend. Visitors to the Austin gun show were met with this flier:



Calls to talk shows created a firestorm. Texas firearms forums are outraged that this could happen. Charles Cotton, attorney and head of the Texas State Rifle Association, is investigating. There is nothing illegal which would otherwise prevent selling a firearm person-to-person in Austin, TX without an FFL doing an NICS background check.

Darwin Boedeker, owner and promoter of Texas Gun Shows (http://texasgunshows.net/default.aspx), went on the radio today for more than 2 hours to tell his side of the story about what happened. I'm pasting the show in YouTube radio broadcast segments below.

The Austin PD called Darwin to have a 2 hour meeting last Thursday. The building housing the gun show is owned by Wal-Mart and the primary lease holder is HEB. The HEB employee responsible for that building was there. There were several APD detectives and an ATF agent there. They told Darwin that they would like for him to follow their suggestions, which were to ban firearms sales except through FFLs. The police then threatened Darwin that there were pending investigations into his business for activity over the last 10 years of allegedly allowing sales to ineligible buyers. However, Darwin's business just started operating in Austin after a different company, Saxet Gun Shows, quit putting on shows in Austin. Darwin responded by asking them if they were aware that his company, Texas Gun Shows, is different than Saxet Gun Shows, which is who they were talking about. APD didn't even realize this and were confused for a bit. Then APD put pressure on the HEB representative, and together the APD, ATF and HEB representative told Darwin that he would not be allowed to open the show if he did not follow their recommendations, which were to create the flyer you've seen and ban sales that didn't accompany an NICS check.

APD and the ATF have no statutory authority to threaten Darwin and order him around like they did. Two of Darwin's biggest vendors canceled and he expects attendance to be down by over 50% next month. This guy needs our support. He is a 2nd Amendment supporter and is running a family business. The ATF and APD are basically destroying his business with their unlawful "suggestions". Nothing that he is doing is illegal. He is not charged with any crime, but the police are unlawfully threatening outside a court to literally shut down his business unless he does what they want. He said that he will not be able to stay in business if this continues. If you are around Austin, we need to go to the next show February 20/21 and not let them kill the Austin gun show. If you are not in Texas, be vigilant for the ATF and local police trying to do this in your town.

The police also made a big scene at the gun show to intimidate people. A vendor was placed in handcuffs by APD and lead through the crowd for everyone to see. He was taken outside but was later released and not arrested.

Interview today (say what you want about Alex, but he's a die-hard 2nd Amendment supporter and this is 100% not tin):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc-gFyPV3Dw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMc4kptEOvQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTC8S6LrzZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOysmhE8jiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciBeIf6piNY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9lulja1tTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byqYad3NlPw
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Old January 18, 2010, 10:33 PM   #13
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Just to clarify. You are talking about Texas?! Not California or some other gun hating state? Unbelievable, should not be allowed to happen any place. If I can manage to be in Austin for the next show, count me in. Might even have a few guns to sale, unless the property owner is forbidding it, that would be his right. Mine would be not to support it with my $.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old January 18, 2010, 11:04 PM   #14
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So the ATF and APD want the "gun show loophole" closed and took matters into their own hands to make it happen?

Unbelievable. The ATF or APD are not legislators. They have a duty to enforce the law not make their own.

Let's say you were arrested for violating the flyer or handcuffed and detained and you fully cooperated with LE would you have grounds to file a lawsuit? What would they arrest you for? Don't they need probable cause to temporarily detain you?

Everyone should obey the orders of a LEO and then fight it out later in court.
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Old January 18, 2010, 11:24 PM   #15
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Quote:
Everyone should obey the orders of a LEO and then fight it out later in court.
NAY SAYS I!!! If a LEO orders me to strip search my daughter I am gonna tell him what I think of him grabbin' crap outta his south end! Same with any other time they may ask me to violate a law! But on the same note, i am not gonna allow them to try to impune upon me any order to comply with their "wishes" if those wishes are not based on a particular law... I draw the line at obeying the law and that includes refusal to break a law by order of LEO or to give up my rights to conduct myself inside the law just because an officer or force don't agree with a our rights inside a law! I would love it to occur here near me! i would sell a rifle in the parking lot just for S&G's!
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Old January 18, 2010, 11:46 PM   #16
noyes
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Just fill 1 car in the parking lot with Free coffee & donuts .... over on the other side of the lot business as usually.
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Old January 19, 2010, 12:01 AM   #17
vranasaurus
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Quote:
Everyone should obey the orders of a LEO and then fight it out later in court.

NAY SAYS I!!! If a LEO orders me to strip search my daughter I am gonna tell him what I think of him grabbin' crap outta his south end! Same with any other time they may ask me to violate a law! But on the same note, i am not gonna allow them to try to impune upon me any order to comply with their "wishes" if those wishes are not based on a particular law... I draw the line at obeying the law and that includes refusal to break a law by order of LEO or to give up my rights to conduct myself inside the law just because an officer or force don't agree with a our rights inside a law! I would love it to occur here near me! i would sell a rifle in the parking lot just for S&G's!
Brent
Sure you should refuse to break the law. An order to break the law is not lawful.

However if a LEO says "You need to come with us" and you refuse you could probably be charged with resisting arrest or interfering with a police officer.

My statement assumed that the order would not be along the lines of "strip search your daughter" or any other order to violate the law.

The law generally places upon citizens a duty to obey a LEO.
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Old January 19, 2010, 12:16 AM   #18
Chaz88
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Quote:
The law generally places upon citizens a duty to obey a LEO.
You should not resist LE even if they are violating you rights. You should calmly assert what your rights are and state that you do not consent to the officers violation of them. But you should never resist or verbally abuse LE. Comply then fight it in court. If you resist or are abusive the court is more likely to overlook the violation of your rights.

If you know what your rights are and assert them and inform LE that you do not consent to the violation of them they will probably try to intimidate you. But if that fails they are more likely to leave you alone, If you do not become violent or abusive. It is hard to stay calm and not be intimidated by LE. They know this and use it to convince you to voluntarily give up your rights.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old January 19, 2010, 06:59 AM   #19
Bartholomew Roberts
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Glad to hear TSRA is investigating this. I think Austin PD really hosed themselves with this stunt if it is true.
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Old January 19, 2010, 09:35 AM   #20
langoley
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And I see they are now trying to pass a law in Tenn. to do the same sort of thing!Tn. HB 2422 would put BIG restrictions on gun shows.
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Old January 19, 2010, 09:44 AM   #21
Chaz88
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Closing the "gun show loop hole" has been on the national agenda for some time. I hope it can be held off, but feel it is just a matter of time.

In Iowa you are supposed to have a permit to acquire, even for private hand gun sales. On a private level it dose give some piece of mind when dealing with strangers. Looking at the big picture, see my signature line.
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Seams like once we the people give what, at the time, seams like a reasonable inch and "they" take the unreasonable mile we can only get that mile back one inch at a time.

No spelun and grammar is not my specialty. So please don't hurt my sensitive little feelings by teasing me about it.
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Old January 19, 2010, 10:04 AM   #22
carguychris
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Quote:
Just to clarify. You are talking about Texas?! Not California or some other gun hating state?
Austin is being increasingly overrun by carpetbaggers from CA due to its high-tech industry.

I'm definitely going to try and attend this show, and I might even sell a gun without a NICS check!

On a more serious note, I would like to point out to fellow Texans that we are in the midst of a very high-profile Republican gubernatorial primary race. Every TX resident who reads this- please write the Perry, Hutchison and Medina campaigns to publicize this unreasonable intimidation!

http://www.rickperry.org/contact
http://texans.forkay.com/pages/contact
http://www.medinafortexas.com/contact-us.php
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Old January 19, 2010, 10:08 AM   #23
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Quote:
The police also made a big scene at the gun show to intimidate people. A vendor was placed in handcuffs by APD and lead through the crowd for everyone to see. He was taken outside but was later released and not arrested.
That sort of thing really opens up the police to a law suit. If police place you in cuffs and lead you away, ask very clearly if you are under arrest and if so under what charge.
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Old January 19, 2010, 10:55 AM   #24
Glenn E. Meyer
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One should wait a touch. If there was a pattern of folks getting tables and consistently selling 'private collections' or FFLs skirting the NICS or CHL checks AND the show management knew this (wink, wink) - then the show has trouble.

There was a report of such with hidden video.

The TSRA is a fine organization and I'm sure they will figure out the real deal. Cotton is very good.

Before you threaten lawsuits (as always done on the Internet), find out the facts.

Cynical old me!
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Old January 19, 2010, 03:07 PM   #25
TexasFats
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"Just to clarify. You are talking about Texas?! Not California or some other gun hating state? Unbelievable, should not be allowed to happen any place. If I can manage to be in Austin for the next show, count me in. Might even have a few guns to sale, unless the property owner is forbidding it, that would be his right. Mine would be not to support it with my $."

Yes this is Austin, TEXAS, otherwise known as "Moscow on the Colorado." Austin is the most left-wing town in Texas. In Travis county, if you shoot in self-defense, you can count on our DA not letting up until the lawyer fees have bankrupted you, even if they can't get a conviction. Also, the new chief of APD is an import from California, CHP, to be specific. Now, do you understand how this can happen here?
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